So I often come back to the question of defining what we mean by "intelligence."
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@futurebird This is about ants, but it feels like a metaphor about neurodivergence.
I think that's part of it. Although what keeps me up at night is thinking about the ease with which ants will abandon a bad but popular path for a shorter more effective one.
You will never have an ant who is saying "but this is the way my older sister went, you insult her memory by not using her path, she suffered so much" or "that ant who found the new shorter path thinks she's better than me, lets get rid of her and the path this is so embarrassing."
I hope.
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@futurebird It's such a loaded term that I've found it difficult to discuss philosophically or scientifically, as like if I say species X is less intelligent than species Y, I'm insulting X.
@futurebird @thejessiekirk it has no scientific definition because it is a pseudo-scientific term.
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That one ant going the "wrong way" isn't less intelligent than the rest. She's an essential part of the system.
Because sometimes that ant finds a shortcut. If she finds a shortcut her pheromone path, the passive evidence of her motion, the freshness of the leaf bit she delivers will attract more ants to her path. Quickly, without discussion or resentment, (cough cough) all of the ants switch to the new shorter path.
The 'wrong way ants' prevent the ants from being trapped in bad attractors.
@futurebird
I relate to this ant. -
I think that's part of it. Although what keeps me up at night is thinking about the ease with which ants will abandon a bad but popular path for a shorter more effective one.
You will never have an ant who is saying "but this is the way my older sister went, you insult her memory by not using her path, she suffered so much" or "that ant who found the new shorter path thinks she's better than me, lets get rid of her and the path this is so embarrassing."
I hope.
@futurebird @mahryekuh This is excellent... We should all follow the ant philosophy
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That one ant going the "wrong way" isn't less intelligent than the rest. She's an essential part of the system.
Because sometimes that ant finds a shortcut. If she finds a shortcut her pheromone path, the passive evidence of her motion, the freshness of the leaf bit she delivers will attract more ants to her path. Quickly, without discussion or resentment, (cough cough) all of the ants switch to the new shorter path.
The 'wrong way ants' prevent the ants from being trapped in bad attractors.
@futurebird
The funny thing is that human innovation often starts with "the wrong way"E.g. the discovery of x-rays by the accidental x-ray of Wilhelm Röntgens wife Anna Bertha Ludwig's hand .
Or the discovery of penicillin through an contaminated sample
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So I often come back to the question of defining what we mean by "intelligence." It's pretty easy to get disgusted say it's not even worth trying to define because it is a word used in such inconsistent ways.
Intelligence is a positive attribute that describes the decision making capacity and effectiveness.
* Is a scientific calculator intelligent?
* Is a billionaire intelligent?
* Is the largest blue whale the most intelligent animal alive because it has the most brain mass?@futurebird
“intelligent” is an adjective categorizing/qualifying a noun & has meaning in an applied context: having or showing high level of intelligence.
“Intelligence” is a noun, describing a specific ability to acquire knowledge & skills.
So “intelligent intelligence” implies there is also “unintelligent intelligence” therefore the noun is spectral in nature like light-
.In general conversation it seems “Intelligence” is being conflated with “genius” I.e. exceptional intelligence.
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"Aphids are less intelligent than ants." I think even the ants and aphids are aware of this. But, what does that statement really mean?
Aphids make very few observable interesting decisions.
In contrast to this ants are constantly making decisions that are easy to observe. For some aphids, part of their survival strategy is to allow ants to make most of their decisions for them.
Ants decide where they forage. Ants decide if they reproduce. Ants even regulate their digestive system.
@futurebird according to my memory, one method of observing aphid decisions involves attaching tiny gold wires to the aphids, and other tiny gold wires to the phloem tubes in the plant, so that when an aphid starts sucking sugar-rich fluid from the plant, an electrical circuit is completed, and when the aphid stops sucking fluid, the circuit is broken. Sounds fun! Or not for me, since I have terrible fine muscule motor control. (This came up in an old episode of arthro-pod .)
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@futurebird
The funny thing is that human innovation often starts with "the wrong way"E.g. the discovery of x-rays by the accidental x-ray of Wilhelm Röntgens wife Anna Bertha Ludwig's hand .
Or the discovery of penicillin through an contaminated sample
@realn2s @futurebird
The Heretics had not always been villains. Rather seen as essential Different Thinkers and Questioners of the accepted truths.
We've lost sight of the value in examining "truth" derived from tradition. (Not to be confused with rejection of one with blind accept of an alternative) -
Do they make interesting decisions? Arguably not: given any choice they will reliably do the thing that maximizes their power and wealth. I doubt any take risks for ethics or well-being of others.
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I think that's part of it. Although what keeps me up at night is thinking about the ease with which ants will abandon a bad but popular path for a shorter more effective one.
You will never have an ant who is saying "but this is the way my older sister went, you insult her memory by not using her path, she suffered so much" or "that ant who found the new shorter path thinks she's better than me, lets get rid of her and the path this is so embarrassing."
I hope.
@futurebird @mahryekuh avoiding bad attractors like cars, amazon (the online purchasing scam), cryptocurrency, and covid-19 has made me terribly unpopular. More importantly, it has cost me jobs, which has led to homelessness. And don't even get me started on how medical insurers and education systems pummel people who avoid bad attractors like cars with hatred and abuse. Nothing is more unamerican than avoiding bad attractors.
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So I often come back to the question of defining what we mean by "intelligence." It's pretty easy to get disgusted say it's not even worth trying to define because it is a word used in such inconsistent ways.
Intelligence is a positive attribute that describes the decision making capacity and effectiveness.
* Is a scientific calculator intelligent?
* Is a billionaire intelligent?
* Is the largest blue whale the most intelligent animal alive because it has the most brain mass?Intelligence is asking questions.
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So I often come back to the question of defining what we mean by "intelligence." It's pretty easy to get disgusted say it's not even worth trying to define because it is a word used in such inconsistent ways.
Intelligence is a positive attribute that describes the decision making capacity and effectiveness.
* Is a scientific calculator intelligent?
* Is a billionaire intelligent?
* Is the largest blue whale the most intelligent animal alive because it has the most brain mass?@futurebird 1. No.
2. No.
3. Intelligence isn't an axis of measurement, it's a qualitative property. So no. -
@futurebird 1. No.
2. No.
3. Intelligence isn't an axis of measurement, it's a qualitative property. So no.@futurebird Re: 1 & 2, a big part of intelligence is the ability to use reasoning processes to manage consequences. Neither a calculator nor a billionaire experiences consequences so neither can have intelligence.
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@futurebird
“intelligent” is an adjective categorizing/qualifying a noun & has meaning in an applied context: having or showing high level of intelligence.
“Intelligence” is a noun, describing a specific ability to acquire knowledge & skills.
So “intelligent intelligence” implies there is also “unintelligent intelligence” therefore the noun is spectral in nature like light-.In general conversation it seems “Intelligence” is being conflated with “genius” I.e. exceptional intelligence.
@futurebird case in point- “unintelligent intelligence” == fiction
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That one ant going the "wrong way" isn't less intelligent than the rest. She's an essential part of the system.
Because sometimes that ant finds a shortcut. If she finds a shortcut her pheromone path, the passive evidence of her motion, the freshness of the leaf bit she delivers will attract more ants to her path. Quickly, without discussion or resentment, (cough cough) all of the ants switch to the new shorter path.
The 'wrong way ants' prevent the ants from being trapped in bad attractors.
-
That one ant going the "wrong way" isn't less intelligent than the rest. She's an essential part of the system.
Because sometimes that ant finds a shortcut. If she finds a shortcut her pheromone path, the passive evidence of her motion, the freshness of the leaf bit she delivers will attract more ants to her path. Quickly, without discussion or resentment, (cough cough) all of the ants switch to the new shorter path.
The 'wrong way ants' prevent the ants from being trapped in bad attractors.
@futurebird I have always assumed this must be my role in society.
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So I often come back to the question of defining what we mean by "intelligence." It's pretty easy to get disgusted say it's not even worth trying to define because it is a word used in such inconsistent ways.
Intelligence is a positive attribute that describes the decision making capacity and effectiveness.
* Is a scientific calculator intelligent?
* Is a billionaire intelligent?
* Is the largest blue whale the most intelligent animal alive because it has the most brain mass?For a very long time ( > 15 years) I'm holding the definition of intelligent being
The capability for directed & deliberated action toward the goal of overcoming hitherto unknown and untrained for situations/problems with near-optimal effort.
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@futurebird For me, the line is between clever - someone who knows a lot of things, whether through exceptional memory or a great deal of study - and intelligent - someone who can understand new problems and solve them. Clever is fine for some tasks and hopeless for others. Intelligence is much more flexible - and can seek out the relevant knowledge they don't have.
As for the technology equivalent, LLMs are a version of clever, generally minus the awareness of whether they are right or wrong!
@Nigel_Lake @futurebird I think you got them the wrong way around. Intelligent means you know lots of stuff (intelligence!), clever means you can work things out.
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@futurebird @mahryekuh avoiding bad attractors like cars, amazon (the online purchasing scam), cryptocurrency, and covid-19 has made me terribly unpopular. More importantly, it has cost me jobs, which has led to homelessness. And don't even get me started on how medical insurers and education systems pummel people who avoid bad attractors like cars with hatred and abuse. Nothing is more unamerican than avoiding bad attractors.
@llewelly @futurebird @mahryekuh I'm curious why you think online purchasing is a scam?
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