Subject: Autistic ‘black and white’ thinking.
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I think our bones are right.
In fact, I think embracing a reasoning style based on data, patterns, and probability could be a huge bonus for everyone.
As – objectively speaking – it could pave the road for authenticity, equity, and justice to replace former murkiness, power plays, and empty promises.
End of 🧵
References below
@KatyElphinstone sure. But a great way to trick people into thinking it's not black and white (which isn't a bad thing) is to tell them even when most unreasonable that their point is valid from their perspective.
Because it actually is. Their opinions and theories may seem incoherent and nonsensical from one's own perspective, but since their brains have produced those results they must make sense to them.
Humility helps also. To every theory there are theoretically infinite alternative theories that may also be true. So thinking one's own perspective is the only one valid is not very smart. Instead adopting a "I think it's like this or that" while also maintaining that that can never be the last truth (since it cannot) is a very good way to make people actually listen without alienating them.
It's just like there are no lies, just misunderstandings. If someone seems to not tell the truth, we just don't understand what they're saying. It's like a code that needs to be deciphered in order to understand what they actually mean, even if it seems that they are deliberately deceiving: They do it for a reason. Find out that reason and one can tell what's actually behind those words.
Psychological analysis is a great way to get to know people.
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3: Conceptual vs social uncertainty.
Many autistic people seem to tolerate:
- Conceptual ambiguity
- Abstract uncertainty
- Complex models
- Open-ended questionsBut we do struggle with:
- Unstated social rules
- Hidden expectations
- Implicit hierarchy shifts
- Unpredictable human behaviorSo the discomfort isn’t with uncertainty per se. It’s with unmodeled variables.
Which ties in with discomfort with social reassurance, e.g. with trusting “everything will be fine.”
️@KatyElphinstone dunno if you know that proverb, someone once told me: "In the end, everything's alright. If it isn't alright yet, it isn't the end yet."
My reaction was "In the end, we're all dead."
Which is true, but a little demotivating to a lot of people. Just as plenty people seem to feel horrified when I explain the myth of Sisyphos and the philosophy of Absurdism to them, which feels very comforting to me. You just roll the stone up the hill every day while maintaining a smile and some day you don't.
Probably should mention that I was never diagnosed with autism, but a lot of these points seem quite fitting.
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@jessica @KatyElphinstone You know what does produce black-and-white thinking?
Abuse.
"You/they did a bad thing. Therefore you/they are a bad person, and therefore everything you/they think or do is bad." Or the inverse with goodness.
And going back to the truism that there are no Autistics without trauma ... could this be the reason for the stereotype?
@callisto @KatyElphinstone I had to scroll this far down the comments to find the abuse/trauma connection (which is very true for me).
But great thread, rang many bells for me, and blows my (former) psychologist's perspective out of the water. Thank you from an AuDHDer with CPTSD.
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Subject: Autistic ‘black and white’ thinking.
It's framed as a deficit often seen in autism, but... is it that simple?
Autistic people are traditionally criticized for our inflexibility, or cognitive rigidity.
But I think this isn’t the whole picture.
To start with what we know, here are ten things we autistic people generally have in common (refs at the end of the thread):
️ #Autism #Neurodivergent #ActuallyAutistic #AuDHD #Neurodiversity
basking in the glow of this well-written, well-researched thesis.
thank you for this affirmation. -
@compost_funeral Easy fix. Tell them you are. Then laugh.
Humour creates critical distance and breaks up the tension for both of you. And if it doesn't (ie they don't share the laugh)... At least you had a good laugh.
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basking in the glow of this well-written, well-researched thesis.
thank you for this affirmation.Thank you
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@KatyElphinstone Amazing, couldn't agree more. And beyond autistic people I think it applies to most highly sensitive, deep thinking people. Because to us it's logic, which is needed to reason. Also why insensitive people don't like us a lot of times I think, as we reinforce their cognitive dissonance.
@simondassow @KatyElphinstone ADHD person here, and the whole thread is giving me good feelings. I can relate, probably bcs I'm ticking that way, too, at least to an extent.
Thanks a lot! -
Subject: Autistic ‘black and white’ thinking.
It's framed as a deficit often seen in autism, but... is it that simple?
Autistic people are traditionally criticized for our inflexibility, or cognitive rigidity.
But I think this isn’t the whole picture.
To start with what we know, here are ten things we autistic people generally have in common (refs at the end of the thread):
️ #Autism #Neurodivergent #ActuallyAutistic #AuDHD #Neurodiversity
@KatyElphinstone this is the first post I have ever bookmarked. Don't want to lose this thread. Lots of good reading material. About Greta Thunberg - I see things in black or white / good or bad, but at the same time I look at the complexities of things. I feel sometimes people say I am black or white because they choose not to think about things in any depth. It's like I don't want to leave things in a state of uncertainty.
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2: Probability thinking and autism.
There’s growing discussion in cognitive science that many autistic people:
- Prefer system-level pattern detection
- Track contingencies more explicitly
- Think in conditional structures (“if X, then Y”)
- Notice statistical irregularitiesThat isn’t black-and-white thinking.
That’s model-based reasoning.If anything, it can tolerate uncertainty better, because uncertainty is explicitly modeled rather than socially smoothed over.
️@KatyElphinstone Logic was one of my favourite courses in university.
I loved playing with if-thens. -
I think we autistics might know all this in our bones. In our hearts. Somewhere, anyway… but usually on an instinctive level.
Even if we’re not aware of our reasons or motivations, and instead struggle with shame and self-doubt (just as we’re encouraged and socialized to do).
But… clarity is the enemy of oppression!
It replaces confusion with transparency. It throws light on the landscape
️ @KatyElphinstone [contemplates getting "clarity is the enemy of oppression" as a tattoo]
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@compost_funeral @KatyElphinstone whoa this just helped explain multiple issues in my personal and professional life
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I've also wondered about Greta Thunberg saying that.
I think what she maybe means is that there's clarity on things, for her. Which would make what she's saying pretty similar to what's laid out here. She's probably been accused many times of being "black and white" because of it.
@KatyElphinstone @jessica Maybe she meant "all or nothing"?
Sentences like "Yes, the planet is dying, but think of the share holders", or "Yes, we should save the environment, but actually doing anything is inconvenient, so maybe not?" just don't sit right for anyone thinking this through.
Hell, yes, we do need to do whatever it takes to save the environment. Seeing that as non-negotiable and not wanting to tone it down for the sake of profit or convenience would be perceived as "inflexible black and white thinking" by anyone who has a "more flexible" view of the situation and weighs profit or convenience against long term survivability.
Weighing the pros and cons of saving the environment and deciding that nothing is worth causing even more destruction seems reasonable to me, but is of course as "black and white" as it can get.
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I've also wondered about Greta Thunberg saying that.
I think what she maybe means is that there's clarity on things, for her. Which would make what she's saying pretty similar to what's laid out here. She's probably been accused many times of being "black and white" because of it.
While I have nothing but respect for Greta Thunberg and her multiple causes, we must not forget she is primarily a public and political figure. What we see, what she says, is carefully crafted to serve those causes. While I don't doubt for a second she is Autistic, she could very well uses this as a way to say and do things she otherwise could not.
Masking is a form of protection, but it can also be a tool, or even a weapon. I'm convinced the Greta we see is a persona. Very close to the real her, but some things hidden and some exaggerated. That "black and white" thing might be more a communication tool than a real trait of her.
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I've also wondered about Greta Thunberg saying that.
I think what she maybe means is that there's clarity on things, for her. Which would make what she's saying pretty similar to what's laid out here. She's probably been accused many times of being "black and white" because of it.
@KatyElphinstone @jessica I tend to think I get black and white around principles, specifically, where allistics are happy to compromise / turn a blind eye.
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@KatyElphinstone @autistics Between "theory of mind deficits", "restricted interests", and now "rigid thinking", it's starting to look as though neurotypicals commenting on autistics is a case of "Every accusation is a confession".
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I've also wondered about Greta Thunberg saying that.
I think what she maybe means is that there's clarity on things, for her. Which would make what she's saying pretty similar to what's laid out here. She's probably been accused many times of being "black and white" because of it.
@KatyElphinstone @jessica I think the distinction there is that it wasn't grey. It was "no, it's black and white, in a specific arrangement. If you look at it properly they're clearly separated."
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@KatyElphinstone Being unambiguous is not “black and white” nor is it limiting. One can have a huge rainbow of clearly defined colours. Blue is not red, yellow is not green. But there are limitless colours. I suspect sometimes people mistake a strong desire for clarity to be a refusal to accept complexity. Sometimes it’s just a stubborn effort to understand or organise the complexity.
I love the phrase “pattern-seeking missile.”
@paco @KatyElphinstone
It’s amazing to me how satisfied some NTs are with poor communication (ambiguity) when they could choose to express their ideas completely and effectively without a lot more effort.How much chaos and wasted effort could be avoided by using a dozen more well-considered words?
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2: Probability thinking and autism.
There’s growing discussion in cognitive science that many autistic people:
- Prefer system-level pattern detection
- Track contingencies more explicitly
- Think in conditional structures (“if X, then Y”)
- Notice statistical irregularitiesThat isn’t black-and-white thinking.
That’s model-based reasoning.If anything, it can tolerate uncertainty better, because uncertainty is explicitly modeled rather than socially smoothed over.
️@KatyElphinstone I wonder if that's what allows my brain to model the flow of code! I've been coding in a very limited programming language that doesn't support exceptions being caught after the fact really, so I have to preemptively know all the potential failure modes and either design such that they don't occur or else slip in explicit guards for them. I'm literally mapping the flow of execution through conditional statements and the parameters that I have either in my head or in the code itself and try to think about places it could go wrong. Often I'll be thinking of these things before I've ever written a line of it.
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@KatyElphinstone dunno if you know that proverb, someone once told me: "In the end, everything's alright. If it isn't alright yet, it isn't the end yet."
My reaction was "In the end, we're all dead."
Which is true, but a little demotivating to a lot of people. Just as plenty people seem to feel horrified when I explain the myth of Sisyphos and the philosophy of Absurdism to them, which feels very comforting to me. You just roll the stone up the hill every day while maintaining a smile and some day you don't.
Probably should mention that I was never diagnosed with autism, but a lot of these points seem quite fitting.
@leonavis @KatyElphinstone "In the long run we are all dead" - John Maynard Keynes
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3: Conceptual vs social uncertainty.
Many autistic people seem to tolerate:
- Conceptual ambiguity
- Abstract uncertainty
- Complex models
- Open-ended questionsBut we do struggle with:
- Unstated social rules
- Hidden expectations
- Implicit hierarchy shifts
- Unpredictable human behaviorSo the discomfort isn’t with uncertainty per se. It’s with unmodeled variables.
Which ties in with discomfort with social reassurance, e.g. with trusting “everything will be fine.”
️@KatyElphinstone My brain absolutely wants to quantify all the things - I can be debilitatingly clarity-seeking, but if that clarity is "these are the known possibilities and how likely they each are," that tends to work too, in a way social reassurance extremely doesn't.
