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  3. Subject: Autistic ‘black and white’ thinking.

Subject: Autistic ‘black and white’ thinking.

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neurodiversityaudhdactuallyautistineurodivergentautism
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  • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

    1. Autistic people like to base our positions and decisions on data.

    2. We’re into justice, and fairness.

    3. And logic (which is, I feel, a good strategy for bringing about more fairness).

    4. We're not comfortable trusting reassurances without evidence.

    5. We like clarity. Lack of clarity can make us anxious.

    6. We think probabilistically / statistically.

    ⬇️

    sinvega@mas.toS This user is from outside of this forum
    sinvega@mas.toS This user is from outside of this forum
    sinvega@mas.to
    wrote last edited by
    #5

    @KatyElphinstone if you have audhd this is true except you're also chained to a gremlin

    katyelphinstone@mas.toK bnlandor@mastodon.socialB 2 Replies Last reply
    0
    • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

      Probability patterns (based upon data) are many shades of grey.

      Never black or white.

      I’m starting to think the ‘rigidity’ thing may be down to a misunderstanding?

      I’m sometimes told I’m being ‘black and white’ when I point at a logical inconsistency in someone’s reasoning.

      I don’t want to be annoying, but I like clarity in parameters and definitions… or else (stands to reason) we’ll never see each other’s points of view!

      And, sometimes, people don’t like this 🤨

      ⬇️

      katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
      katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
      katyelphinstone@mas.to
      wrote last edited by
      #6

      Ok, I can see why school management doesn’t like it – e.g. in a public consultation when they’re pushing through a policy that goes against the kids and parents, while justifying it with arguments that are a) logically inconsistent, and b) funnily, involve them taking no responsibility.

      I’m also told I’m bad at ‘just trusting’ – that I’m suspicious.

      “But,” I protest, “it’s just that I like evidence. Um – where’s the data, please?”

      ⬇️

      #Data #Clarity #ActuallyAutistic

      katyelphinstone@mas.toK 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

        Ok, I can see why school management doesn’t like it – e.g. in a public consultation when they’re pushing through a policy that goes against the kids and parents, while justifying it with arguments that are a) logically inconsistent, and b) funnily, involve them taking no responsibility.

        I’m also told I’m bad at ‘just trusting’ – that I’m suspicious.

        “But,” I protest, “it’s just that I like evidence. Um – where’s the data, please?”

        ⬇️

        #Data #Clarity #ActuallyAutistic

        katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
        katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
        katyelphinstone@mas.to
        wrote last edited by
        #7

        Zooming in here…

        And dividing this into 4 strands (I know: very autistic 😊 😞

        1. Clarity vs rigidity;
        2. Probabilistic vs local thinking;
        3. Cognitive vs social uncertainty;
        4. Are we right not to ‘just trust’?

        And addressing them one by one:

        ⬇️

        katyelphinstone@mas.toK 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

          Zooming in here…

          And dividing this into 4 strands (I know: very autistic 😊 😞

          1. Clarity vs rigidity;
          2. Probabilistic vs local thinking;
          3. Cognitive vs social uncertainty;
          4. Are we right not to ‘just trust’?

          And addressing them one by one:

          ⬇️

          katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
          katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
          katyelphinstone@mas.to
          wrote last edited by
          #8

          1: Clarity vs rigidity.

          Clarity is about:
          - Explicit parameters
          - Defined variables
          - Stated assumptions
          - Predictable processes

          Rigidity is about:
          - Refusal to update
          - Low tolerance for model revision
          - Over-attachment to a rule regardless of new evidence

          A probabilistic thinker can be extremely non-rigid, while still demanding clarity.

          In fact, probability thinking requires flexibility.

          You constantly update priors when new data arrives. That’s Bayesian, not rigid 🥰

          ⬇️

          katyelphinstone@mas.toK 1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

            1: Clarity vs rigidity.

            Clarity is about:
            - Explicit parameters
            - Defined variables
            - Stated assumptions
            - Predictable processes

            Rigidity is about:
            - Refusal to update
            - Low tolerance for model revision
            - Over-attachment to a rule regardless of new evidence

            A probabilistic thinker can be extremely non-rigid, while still demanding clarity.

            In fact, probability thinking requires flexibility.

            You constantly update priors when new data arrives. That’s Bayesian, not rigid 🥰

            ⬇️

            katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
            katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
            katyelphinstone@mas.to
            wrote last edited by
            #9

            2: Probability thinking and autism.

            There’s growing discussion in cognitive science that many autistic people:
            - Prefer system-level pattern detection
            - Track contingencies more explicitly
            - Think in conditional structures (“if X, then Y”)
            - Notice statistical irregularities

            That isn’t black-and-white thinking.
            That’s model-based reasoning.

            If anything, it can tolerate uncertainty better, because uncertainty is explicitly modeled rather than socially smoothed over.

            ⬇️

            katyelphinstone@mas.toK cassandra@ottawa.placeC x0@dragonscave.spaceX shinybat@zeroes.caS oldoldcojote@climatejustice.socialO 5 Replies Last reply
            0
            • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

              2: Probability thinking and autism.

              There’s growing discussion in cognitive science that many autistic people:
              - Prefer system-level pattern detection
              - Track contingencies more explicitly
              - Think in conditional structures (“if X, then Y”)
              - Notice statistical irregularities

              That isn’t black-and-white thinking.
              That’s model-based reasoning.

              If anything, it can tolerate uncertainty better, because uncertainty is explicitly modeled rather than socially smoothed over.

              ⬇️

              katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
              katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
              katyelphinstone@mas.to
              wrote last edited by
              #10

              3: Conceptual vs social uncertainty.

              Many autistic people seem to tolerate:
              - Conceptual ambiguity
              - Abstract uncertainty
              - Complex models
              - Open-ended questions

              But we do struggle with:
              - Unstated social rules
              - Hidden expectations
              - Implicit hierarchy shifts
              - Unpredictable human behavior

              So the discomfort isn’t with uncertainty per se. It’s with unmodeled variables.

              Which ties in with discomfort with social reassurance, e.g. with trusting “everything will be fine.”

              ⬇️

              katyelphinstone@mas.toK leonavis@mountains.socialL shinybat@zeroes.caS 3 Replies Last reply
              0
              • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                3: Conceptual vs social uncertainty.

                Many autistic people seem to tolerate:
                - Conceptual ambiguity
                - Abstract uncertainty
                - Complex models
                - Open-ended questions

                But we do struggle with:
                - Unstated social rules
                - Hidden expectations
                - Implicit hierarchy shifts
                - Unpredictable human behavior

                So the discomfort isn’t with uncertainty per se. It’s with unmodeled variables.

                Which ties in with discomfort with social reassurance, e.g. with trusting “everything will be fine.”

                ⬇️

                katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                katyelphinstone@mas.to
                wrote last edited by
                #11

                4: Are we right not to ‘just trust’?

                Many neurotypical social systems run on:
                - Emotional smoothing
                - Implicit trust
                - Status-based reassurance
                - Norm enforcement through vibe rather than data

                If you’ve repeatedly experienced (and many autistic people have; refs at the end):
                - Broken promises
                - Social insecurity and unpredictability
                - Rule inconsistencies and injustices

                Then vague reassurance doesn’t reduce uncertainty – it increases it!

                ⬇️

                katyelphinstone@mas.toK d1@autistics.lifeD everythingalsocan@techhub.socialE nellie_m@autisticpri.deN kats@chaosfem.twK 5 Replies Last reply
                0
                • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                  4: Are we right not to ‘just trust’?

                  Many neurotypical social systems run on:
                  - Emotional smoothing
                  - Implicit trust
                  - Status-based reassurance
                  - Norm enforcement through vibe rather than data

                  If you’ve repeatedly experienced (and many autistic people have; refs at the end):
                  - Broken promises
                  - Social insecurity and unpredictability
                  - Rule inconsistencies and injustices

                  Then vague reassurance doesn’t reduce uncertainty – it increases it!

                  ⬇️

                  katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                  katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                  katyelphinstone@mas.to
                  wrote last edited by
                  #12

                  So the demand for clarity isn’t rigidity.
                  It’s risk management.

                  Even if sometimes, due to habituation and chronic distress, I think we may ‘bunker in’ and be quite frustratingly intransigent, e.g. in human interactions.

                  But that may be more a question of ‘once bitten, twice shy’ rather than anything intrinsic to us.

                  ⬇️

                  #Autism #Anxiety #RiskManagement

                  katyelphinstone@mas.toK 1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                    So the demand for clarity isn’t rigidity.
                    It’s risk management.

                    Even if sometimes, due to habituation and chronic distress, I think we may ‘bunker in’ and be quite frustratingly intransigent, e.g. in human interactions.

                    But that may be more a question of ‘once bitten, twice shy’ rather than anything intrinsic to us.

                    ⬇️

                    #Autism #Anxiety #RiskManagement

                    katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                    katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                    katyelphinstone@mas.to
                    wrote last edited by
                    #13

                    I think we autistics might know all this in our bones. In our hearts. Somewhere, anyway… but usually on an instinctive level.

                    Even if we’re not aware of our reasons or motivations, and instead struggle with shame and self-doubt (just as we’re encouraged and socialized to do).

                    But… clarity is the enemy of oppression!

                    It replaces confusion with transparency. It throws light on the landscape 🔦

                    ⬇️

                    #PowerDynamics #SocialHierarchies #EpistemicInjustice

                    katyelphinstone@mas.toK cassandra@ottawa.placeC 2 Replies Last reply
                    0
                    • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                      I think we autistics might know all this in our bones. In our hearts. Somewhere, anyway… but usually on an instinctive level.

                      Even if we’re not aware of our reasons or motivations, and instead struggle with shame and self-doubt (just as we’re encouraged and socialized to do).

                      But… clarity is the enemy of oppression!

                      It replaces confusion with transparency. It throws light on the landscape 🔦

                      ⬇️

                      #PowerDynamics #SocialHierarchies #EpistemicInjustice

                      katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                      katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                      katyelphinstone@mas.to
                      wrote last edited by
                      #14

                      I think our bones are right.

                      In fact, I think embracing a reasoning style based on data, patterns, and probability could be a huge bonus for everyone.

                      As – objectively speaking – it could pave the road for authenticity, equity, and justice to replace former murkiness, power plays, and empty promises.

                      End of 🧵

                      References below 👇

                      katyelphinstone@mas.toK szczurtorebkowy@ohai.socialS dedicto@zeroes.caD jessica@gts.woollybear.xyzJ leonavis@mountains.socialL 7 Replies Last reply
                      0
                      • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                        I think our bones are right.

                        In fact, I think embracing a reasoning style based on data, patterns, and probability could be a huge bonus for everyone.

                        As – objectively speaking – it could pave the road for authenticity, equity, and justice to replace former murkiness, power plays, and empty promises.

                        End of 🧵

                        References below 👇

                        katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                        katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                        katyelphinstone@mas.to
                        wrote last edited by
                        #15

                        Refs:
                        Arendt, H. Truth and Politics
                        https://german.yale.edu/sites/default/files/arendt.truth_and_politicslying_in_politics.pdf
                        - Explores why factual truth is politically fragile, and how organised lying distorts shared reality.

                        Beasant, L. et al. (2023) autistic adults’ views on RCT randomisation and blinding (open access, PMC)
                        https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11134970/
                        - Here, autistic adults emphasised the need for clear explanations of how decisions are made.

                        more below👇

                        katyelphinstone@mas.toK 1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                          Refs:
                          Arendt, H. Truth and Politics
                          https://german.yale.edu/sites/default/files/arendt.truth_and_politicslying_in_politics.pdf
                          - Explores why factual truth is politically fragile, and how organised lying distorts shared reality.

                          Beasant, L. et al. (2023) autistic adults’ views on RCT randomisation and blinding (open access, PMC)
                          https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11134970/
                          - Here, autistic adults emphasised the need for clear explanations of how decisions are made.

                          more below👇

                          katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                          katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                          katyelphinstone@mas.to
                          wrote last edited by
                          #16

                          Bloom, P. Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion
                          - Argues empathy can be biased and spotlight-driven, and defends rational compassion as a better moral guide.

                          Demetriou, E.A. et al. (2018) executive function meta-analysis (Molecular Psychiatry)
                          https://www.nature.com/articles/mp201775
                          - Meta-analysis showing executive-function differences in autism relating to flexibility.

                          more below 👇

                          katyelphinstone@mas.toK 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                            4: Are we right not to ‘just trust’?

                            Many neurotypical social systems run on:
                            - Emotional smoothing
                            - Implicit trust
                            - Status-based reassurance
                            - Norm enforcement through vibe rather than data

                            If you’ve repeatedly experienced (and many autistic people have; refs at the end):
                            - Broken promises
                            - Social insecurity and unpredictability
                            - Rule inconsistencies and injustices

                            Then vague reassurance doesn’t reduce uncertainty – it increases it!

                            ⬇️

                            d1@autistics.lifeD This user is from outside of this forum
                            d1@autistics.lifeD This user is from outside of this forum
                            d1@autistics.life
                            wrote last edited by
                            #17

                            @KatyElphinstone 💯 on the vague re-assurances being worth Jack Squat

                            katyelphinstone@mas.toK 1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                              Bloom, P. Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion
                              - Argues empathy can be biased and spotlight-driven, and defends rational compassion as a better moral guide.

                              Demetriou, E.A. et al. (2018) executive function meta-analysis (Molecular Psychiatry)
                              https://www.nature.com/articles/mp201775
                              - Meta-analysis showing executive-function differences in autism relating to flexibility.

                              more below 👇

                              katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                              katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                              katyelphinstone@mas.to
                              wrote last edited by
                              #18

                              Farmer at el. (2017) consistent decision-making in autism (open PDF copy)
                              https://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2017_Farmer_People-with-ASCs-make-more-consistent-decisions.pdf
                              - Finds autistic people to make more consistent choices in a decoy-effect decision task.

                              Farmer, P. Pathologies of Power: Health, Human Rights, and the New War on the Poor
                              - How ‘structural violence’ produces suffering & why naming power works towards real-world change.

                              Freire, P. Pedagogy of the Oppressed
                              - Connects oppression & liberation to social, learning, & language frameworks

                              more below 👇

                              katyelphinstone@mas.toK 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                                Farmer at el. (2017) consistent decision-making in autism (open PDF copy)
                                https://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2017_Farmer_People-with-ASCs-make-more-consistent-decisions.pdf
                                - Finds autistic people to make more consistent choices in a decoy-effect decision task.

                                Farmer, P. Pathologies of Power: Health, Human Rights, and the New War on the Poor
                                - How ‘structural violence’ produces suffering & why naming power works towards real-world change.

                                Freire, P. Pedagogy of the Oppressed
                                - Connects oppression & liberation to social, learning, & language frameworks

                                more below 👇

                                katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                                katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                                katyelphinstone@mas.to
                                wrote last edited by
                                #19

                                Fricker, M. Epistemic Injustice: Power and the Ethics of Knowing
                                - Defines how power wrongs people, incl. how society lacks concepts to describe harms.

                                Hollocks et al. (2025). Cognitive flexibility mediates the associations between perceived stress, social camouflaging and mental health challenges in autistic adults. Autism Research, 18(8), 1595–1607. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/aur.70061
                                - Higher stress in autistic people was linked to worse anxiety/depression & more rigid thinking.

                                more below 👇

                                katyelphinstone@mas.toK 1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                                  Fricker, M. Epistemic Injustice: Power and the Ethics of Knowing
                                  - Defines how power wrongs people, incl. how society lacks concepts to describe harms.

                                  Hollocks et al. (2025). Cognitive flexibility mediates the associations between perceived stress, social camouflaging and mental health challenges in autistic adults. Autism Research, 18(8), 1595–1607. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/aur.70061
                                  - Higher stress in autistic people was linked to worse anxiety/depression & more rigid thinking.

                                  more below 👇

                                  katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                                  katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                                  katyelphinstone@mas.to
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #20

                                  Jameel, L. et al. (2015) clear-cut vs ambiguous social rules (UCL PDF)
                                  https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1469956/1/Jameel%20et%20al.%20Great%20Expectations.pdf
                                  - Looks at whether social rules are clear-cut or ambiguous and measures responses as a direct test of rule clarity.

                                  Jin, P. et al. (2020) fairness games in autism (open access, PMC)
                                  https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7137314/
                                  - Uses economic fairness tasks to compare fairness-related choices in autistic and non-autistic groups.

                                  more below 👇

                                  katyelphinstone@mas.toK 1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                                    Jameel, L. et al. (2015) clear-cut vs ambiguous social rules (UCL PDF)
                                    https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1469956/1/Jameel%20et%20al.%20Great%20Expectations.pdf
                                    - Looks at whether social rules are clear-cut or ambiguous and measures responses as a direct test of rule clarity.

                                    Jin, P. et al. (2020) fairness games in autism (open access, PMC)
                                    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7137314/
                                    - Uses economic fairness tasks to compare fairness-related choices in autistic and non-autistic groups.

                                    more below 👇

                                    katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                                    katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                                    katyelphinstone@mas.to
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #21

                                    Karvelis, P. et al. (2018) Bayesian visual integration and autistic traits (open access, PMC)
                                    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5966274/
                                    - Tests autistic traits in Bayesian integration and links traits to stronger perception via more precise sensory information.

                                    Li, J. et al. (2014) moral judgement and cooperation in autism (open access, PMC)
                                    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3945921/
                                    - Relates moral judgements in autism to cooperation behaviour in a game context.

                                    more below 👇

                                    katyelphinstone@mas.toK gra@hachyderm.ioG 2 Replies Last reply
                                    0
                                    • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                                      Karvelis, P. et al. (2018) Bayesian visual integration and autistic traits (open access, PMC)
                                      https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5966274/
                                      - Tests autistic traits in Bayesian integration and links traits to stronger perception via more precise sensory information.

                                      Li, J. et al. (2014) moral judgement and cooperation in autism (open access, PMC)
                                      https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3945921/
                                      - Relates moral judgements in autism to cooperation behaviour in a game context.

                                      more below 👇

                                      katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                                      katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                                      katyelphinstone@mas.to
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #22

                                      Orwell, G. (1946) “Politics and the English Language”
                                      https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/politics-and-the-english-language/
                                      - Shows how vague language protects cruelty & frames clarity as resistance to manipulation.

                                      Pellicano, E. & Burr, D. (2012) Bayesian explanation of autistic perception (UCL record)
                                      https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1476122/
                                      - A Bayesian framing of autistic perception showing how priors and uncertainty differ in shaping experience.

                                      End of refs.

                                      simondassow@masto.aiS sci_fi_fangirl@hessen.socialS 2 Replies Last reply
                                      0
                                      • katyelphinstone@mas.toK katyelphinstone@mas.to

                                        7. We can be a bit like pattern-seeking missiles.

                                        8. When new evidence comes to light, we’re generally adaptable – even if it takes a minute.

                                        9. That said, we may dig in our heels about things (like change) when we’re anxious or scared.

                                        10. We like gathering data, and interactions that are a true exchange of information.

                                        But none of this amounts to cognitive rigidity or ‘black and white’ thinking 🤔

                                        ⬇️

                                        paco@infosec.exchangeP This user is from outside of this forum
                                        paco@infosec.exchangeP This user is from outside of this forum
                                        paco@infosec.exchange
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #23

                                        @KatyElphinstone Being unambiguous is not “black and white” nor is it limiting. One can have a huge rainbow of clearly defined colours. Blue is not red, yellow is not green. But there are limitless colours. I suspect sometimes people mistake a strong desire for clarity to be a refusal to accept complexity. Sometimes it’s just a stubborn effort to understand or organise the complexity.

                                        I love the phrase “pattern-seeking missile.”

                                        neverbeaten@mas.toN 1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • d1@autistics.lifeD d1@autistics.life

                                          @KatyElphinstone 💯 on the vague re-assurances being worth Jack Squat

                                          katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                                          katyelphinstone@mas.toK This user is from outside of this forum
                                          katyelphinstone@mas.to
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #24

                                          @d1

                                          Yes, that too, exactly!

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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