The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird
That's my experience. Lefty friends talk about the right as if they hold deeply considered beliefs and my right leaning family talk about the left being brainwashed. -
If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird The strange thing to me is that the far right isn't some rigid unified hierarchy either. It's not like there's someone generally agreed as "the leader of the Neo Nazis". Or "The general of the militias". They're all a weird hodge podge of diverse far right fash clubs.
I think it's less that they can't conceive of a loosely associated diaspora of groups, and more that they want to build it up as some boogie man, likely with some Jewish or Black or Trans person or whatever as "The Leader".
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
It’s not the case because an egalitarian mindset is ever vigilant against the domineering behavior all of us are subject to.
The problem we all face is that all of us have been sold. The idea that there’s just left and there’s this right and each of them argued there is a compromise between freedom and prosperity when they are inseparable.
Real left-wing mindset understands. They are inseparable and those parties that claim the mantle of compromise are by definition right wing
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Saying and believing things is a loyalty test; this is why the right goes on missionary expeditions. It is not to get converts (though that's fine too) but to separate "us" from "them". To show our young people that the others are wrong, and reject you personally for your beliefs.
That keeps the next generation from questioning.
The point is creating contrast with "them", the out-group that is inherently wrong and evil.
@willyyam @futurebird Yep, and the source of truth for them is not evidence or logic, but authority. That's why it's no use arguing with them.
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
@futurebird it's because that's what they do and their imagination is so limited they can't imagine any other way to exist, and the idea of existing without hierarchy scares the shit out of them cause it would mean the end of their unearned power. they are nothing without it.
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird i've heard a lot of people say that anarchy is the default human position. most us are already anarchists and just don't know it yet.
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Sometimes I think some of the things we consider "normal" for childhood are basically conversion camp. Like teaching boys to fear being called "like a girl" as the worst possible insult. Of course (if you are a guy) you don't want someone to say you are a girl, that's not who you are.
But the dread and horror of such insults is kind of unnatural. It can be traumatic. *Every* man I know has a traumatic memory of doing something "for girls" by accident and getting attacked and humiliated for it.
@futurebird we know that white supremacy is a death cult.
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That sounds like such a mean accusation. But I kind of wonder.
@futurebird @spz Seems plausible at least for core MAGA. I mean, we see it. Every. Single. Day. But of course, most people are not such clean specimens. They are complicated. Values matter, and what people they look up to say matters, in a varying mix.
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That might also have been when and where you grew up. The 80s and 90s were pretty anti-girl in the US.
This is why Buffy and Powerpuff girls were so big I think, they were the female equivalent of the male antihero.
But on the surface they had to be a joke, it was just too unsettling at the time to actually have women be valuable.
@MCDuncanLab @oddtail @futurebird 90s in Europe weren't much different.
And to be honest, even though we've had a few female media heroines in the meantime, I'm afraid things didn't change enough overall. Of course, women do mostly have jobs now, but if they have kids, they now can't do anything right anymore. And work is still a boy's club if you climb high enough.
Nothing that can't be rolled back in a generation, as is very apparent by the tendencies seen in your government, I'm sure you're aware.
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I don't think this revulsion is just natural, it's a high effort system done intentionally to keep women in our place. If a little boy thinks the pink toy is just as nice for him as the more masculine army green toys... well the whole world may fall into disorder.
Cats and dogs living together and all of that.
@futurebird Gendered kids toys should be banned. There's no good reason that kids toys should ever be marketed to one gender over another.
In fact, I'm starting to come around on the idea of all kids just being considered a single gender until such a time as they decide on another.
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What does it mean to be trans if there is no wall between genders to cross?
I mean you're still you, but you didn't have to go anywhere to get there. You'll be sessile, not trans.
@Phosphenes @futurebird it could be always physical body dysphoria. Or something like this often described in blogs of trans women discovering themselves as adults. Like their brain/nervous systems needing opposite hormones. They often call it "running on wrong fuel" and after starting HRT they say finally they could experience emotions fully, have better focus ability and/or got rid of fog or wall preventing them from feeling.
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What does it mean to be trans if there is no wall between genders to cross?
I mean you're still you, but you didn't have to go anywhere to get there. You'll be sessile, not trans.
You don't need a wall, but there are different ways to be, right?
Like a vast field that gradually becomes forest. Are you a flower in the field or one that grows in the forest? Where does the forest end? it's blended but there are still differences.
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird I think it's usually more subtle (but only usually): permission structures and the like tend to be multilayered messes and often they're only supposed to be taken at face value by suckers or by the enemy
so failing to notice what coheres into the next layer(s)?...
(there's also failing to let people know what they can actually ask for, which is a great way to screw over people from the wrong backgrounds)
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
@futurebird I recall commentators (both left and right wing) that believed that there was some kind of secret core of bosses that would decide what version went on Wikipedia.
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@futurebird I recall commentators (both left and right wing) that believed that there was some kind of secret core of bosses that would decide what version went on Wikipedia.
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@futurebird But I can understand what they came from. Journalists are used to editors / editors in chief changing what they wrote, choosing the title etc., or to the owner of the newspaper dictating the editorial line (not to mention those buying advertisements).
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
@futurebird This is their hierarchical authoritarianism showing again.
*They* don't have any stable identity or principles, they are entirely defined by authorities telling them who they are. They can't comprehend self-actualization or people having intrinsic identities.
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@willyyam @futurebird Yep, and the source of truth for them is not evidence or logic, but authority. That's why it's no use arguing with them.
@martinvermeer @willyyam @futurebird
YES! I think this is vv important -
If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird I look at outrage culture*, and there's so much to be upset about, sometimes I wonder if I've been duped, too. Then I wonder who would trick people into progressive values and why, and the answer from the right always seems to boil down to general malevolence for its own sake, or just "Satan!!!"
I think you're right about not seeing the rigid strucures of indoctrination. I know they're there, but I still can't wrap my head around how many people seem to accept them without any curiosity.
*I mean, we should be outraged by the outrageous, but that's a whole other thing.
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R relay@relay.mycrowd.ca shared this topic
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@futurebird
I'm surprised by the question, since as @InkySchwartz says, the left is hyper-sensitive to control systems. Minimizing those is our raison d’être.The responses by @willyyam, @huxley, & @infryq are also confusing. These are all examples of "irrational" behavior done to support hierarchy. Surely everyone knows (both left & right) why it's being done.
maybe *you* know it, but I would encourage you to imagine other people with a different reading list than you
bc there are an awful lot of think pieces out there trying to “gotcha” the right by showing how most beneficiaries of various social programs they fight against are in red states
and the thesis is usually “how are you going to keep your constituency if you take away their medicare” and almost never “it makes sense you’d want to take away their medicare, that’s what is freeing them from the shackles of hierarchy”
