Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
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@alice That’s the sort of combative macho bullshit that has infected political discourse and the media. No wonder no-one in charge has any idea what the fuck they’re doing.
@benjamincox @alice all those "big picture" people who dont want to be bothered with pesky things like reality
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice It's definitely something that men are trained to do. I've had people criticize me for not being "assertive" enough, in just this way. In workplaces, though, I'm usually low enough in status that I'm not expected to say anything in a meeting.
I have also been criticized for talking over people, to be fair. I don't mean to; I just want to complete a thought. In a lot of conversations I feel like I'm waiting for my turn, and I don't recognize when my turn is over.
EDIT: removed a bad figure of speech.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice I'm a man who has gotten the same feedback. I think my tendency to listen is a strength and I'm not interested in getting ahead by running my mouth.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice I think you are right.
Men need to unlearn this when we leave the schoolyard and enter the adult world.
I think part of the resistance to learning this is imposter syndrome. Young men are full of fears they often cannot share. Those fears get paved over with hostility and domineering, which they pretend is strength. By the time they end up in a meeting with female peers, they have an inescapable need to prove themselves. Their inexperience leads them to believe respect and admiration is a zero-sum game. At that point, any chance of being a good team mate with women is practically lost.
It doesn't have to be that way. But, I'd say it usually is.
I've seen men who respect women in meetings. I learned to do it better, from them. It can be learned, and then things are so much better. A team fighting itself doesn't win very often. More importantly, life is shitty when it's full of conflict, and much more joyful when everyone feels good about their part in a team effort. The team wins together.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Wait, you were a tech exec? But... you're capable, smart, and have good takes. You also seem like a really decent person who cares about others. How did you last even five minutes in the churning gyre of madness that is the executive circle of hell?
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@momo @alice
Long reply
We all do it; we are human. Things we are passionate about we can't help ourselves.What I am **trying** to learn to do when I interrupt someone else, and I realize it during - I apologize. "Sorry for interrupting, I got ahead of myself. Please continue". If I realize afterwards, I apologize as well of course.
Attempting to suppress yourself is not going to end well. Learning to identify your thoughts and actions - and redirecting them works far better and is healthier.
Best thing to do however? Call out when others do it. Friendly at first
"sorry {person talking over another}, love the enthusiasm you are bringing. I would like to hear what {original person} wanted to say first so I have the full context for your reply."
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@alice
Honestly, I hear so many storys and I see them myself in team meetings, etc. And I always realize: "That's not me, I don't do that."But I do. In my case it is related to my ADHD, that I feel the urge to burst out whatever I have in my mind before I forget about it because there are butterflies on the window!
After I realized that I started to observe myself, try to suppress impulses. Medication helps and I think I have this more under control than ever before.
Not because I count my self as "not all men", but because I realized "actually, me too". So thank you and everyone else who spoke up. Please don't stop. And everyone, please don't stop listen, even if you are not all whatever. Because it could be you anyway.
@momo @alice
Long reply
We all do it; we are human. Things we are passionate about we can't help ourselves.What I am **trying** to learn to do when I interrupt someone else, and I realize it during - I apologize. "Sorry for interrupting, I got ahead of myself. Please continue". If I realize afterwards, I apologize as well of course.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Yeah that is the case and I have done this exact thing too. BUT, it IS a gender thing because we are privileging the gender socialization of men. Because the thing is, why are we asking women to spend OUR energy leaning into men's socialized habits of domination in conversation, instead of asking men to lean into learning how to chill the fuck out and be more cooperative conversationally? (They might even like it better!)
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@alice Yeah that is the case and I have done this exact thing too. BUT, it IS a gender thing because we are privileging the gender socialization of men. Because the thing is, why are we asking women to spend OUR energy leaning into men's socialized habits of domination in conversation, instead of asking men to lean into learning how to chill the fuck out and be more cooperative conversationally? (They might even like it better!)
There was a good NYT article about this a few years ago
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There was a good NYT article about this a few years ago
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@alice Yeah that is the case and I have done this exact thing too. BUT, it IS a gender thing because we are privileging the gender socialization of men. Because the thing is, why are we asking women to spend OUR energy leaning into men's socialized habits of domination in conversation, instead of asking men to lean into learning how to chill the fuck out and be more cooperative conversationally? (They might even like it better!)
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice
Right, I just sipped my tea after that little toot-bonanza I typed (sorry)I loathe that this toxic aggressive shouting match conversation style is considered the norm and accepted.
I have been know to interrupt those interrupting me or others and go "can I/they finish first please?" But oefff doing that drains me emotionally, and yet I do it. It's important
🫂 I'm so happy to know you now are in a happier, healthier place. And sorry you had to endure it before. Big fluffy hearts!
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
I regret that it is necessary to footnote that.
I don't say that I regret you did, nor that I regret "you thought" that, because needing to do that it goes right to the heart of the main point.
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@alice I'm a man who has gotten the same feedback. I think my tendency to listen is a strength and I'm not interested in getting ahead by running my mouth.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Sorry to hear about your shitty time at work.
A lifetime working in the helping professions - including with folks who might politely be described as "challenging" - has given me an acute nose for the type of person (usually but not always a man!) who only respects dominance behaviours, and walks all over those who don't display them. If that's the type of person I'm dealing with, that's how they're gonna be treated - in and outside of work!
But it must be a lot harder for women.
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@semitones @alice Are y'all hiring? :3
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice This is definitely a thing, but men talk over me more post-transition than they did pre-transition, even though I'm significantly more confident and assertive these days.
I think men, even timid men, are perceived to be assertive, and women are not. Women can compensate for this by becoming particularly assertive but I think you have to actually be more assertive than most guys to be perceived equally. And then you're in danger of being labelled bossy.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Oh that is an interesting observation and I’m sure it holds truth. But also, I *am* being talked over more now I am femme presenting. And I haven’t suddenly become more demure.
