Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice one thing I've noticed is how some people never pause to give anyone else even a chance to speak. As if there's a filibuster that needs to be kept going uninterrupted or something. And if you don't counter what they're saying when is wrong they consider you to have agreed whatever incorrect statement it is. Quite tiring.
Like you're on a CSMA/CA medium, but some people treat it as CSMA/CD but don't bother with the CD aspect of it
️(That's Carrier Sense Multiple Access, with either Collision Avoidance or Collision Detection, for those not in the networking world)
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice The act of interrupting someone who is speaking without having a something to contribute just makes you look stupid, doesn’t it? I’m clearly not cut out for the corporate world.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice I hate it and I hate being part of the system that normalizes this behaviour.
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@alice assertiveness is a big part, but I think not just that. Men¹ do not listen to women. So tha man who repeats your idea first and explains it to you back gets the credit from the others. The only thing that corrects them is if another man points out their behaviour. But it is ingrained so much that even calling out does not stop it from occurring again. Next time, they do the same.
This became a big thing at my previous job. There was a meeting of essentially the whole program I was on. Way bigger than it needed to be, so most of us were just spectators. I don't remember what issue they were trying to solve, but a woman made a suggestion, it was ignored, a little later a man repeated the suggestion, and it was taken seriously. The most notable thing about this incident is that another woman called it out in the same meeting, and that actually started a good discussion. Of course, afterwards a bunch of guys were rolling their eyes and saying "oh, I guess we have to be careful what we say now." I was not out at work at that time, so there was an extra layer of discomfort for me. But the fact that this happened and was called out publicly among the higher levels of the company seemed to empower women there to speak up more.
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@alice That’s the sort of combative macho bullshit that has infected political discourse and the media. No wonder no-one in charge has any idea what the fuck they’re doing.
@benjamincox @alice all those "big picture" people who dont want to be bothered with pesky things like reality
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice It's definitely something that men are trained to do. I've had people criticize me for not being "assertive" enough, in just this way. In workplaces, though, I'm usually low enough in status that I'm not expected to say anything in a meeting.
I have also been criticized for talking over people, to be fair. I don't mean to; I just want to complete a thought. In a lot of conversations I feel like I'm waiting for my turn, and I don't recognize when my turn is over.
EDIT: removed a bad figure of speech.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice I'm a man who has gotten the same feedback. I think my tendency to listen is a strength and I'm not interested in getting ahead by running my mouth.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice I think you are right.
Men need to unlearn this when we leave the schoolyard and enter the adult world.
I think part of the resistance to learning this is imposter syndrome. Young men are full of fears they often cannot share. Those fears get paved over with hostility and domineering, which they pretend is strength. By the time they end up in a meeting with female peers, they have an inescapable need to prove themselves. Their inexperience leads them to believe respect and admiration is a zero-sum game. At that point, any chance of being a good team mate with women is practically lost.
It doesn't have to be that way. But, I'd say it usually is.
I've seen men who respect women in meetings. I learned to do it better, from them. It can be learned, and then things are so much better. A team fighting itself doesn't win very often. More importantly, life is shitty when it's full of conflict, and much more joyful when everyone feels good about their part in a team effort. The team wins together.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Wait, you were a tech exec? But... you're capable, smart, and have good takes. You also seem like a really decent person who cares about others. How did you last even five minutes in the churning gyre of madness that is the executive circle of hell?
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@momo @alice
Long reply
We all do it; we are human. Things we are passionate about we can't help ourselves.What I am **trying** to learn to do when I interrupt someone else, and I realize it during - I apologize. "Sorry for interrupting, I got ahead of myself. Please continue". If I realize afterwards, I apologize as well of course.
Attempting to suppress yourself is not going to end well. Learning to identify your thoughts and actions - and redirecting them works far better and is healthier.
Best thing to do however? Call out when others do it. Friendly at first
"sorry {person talking over another}, love the enthusiasm you are bringing. I would like to hear what {original person} wanted to say first so I have the full context for your reply."
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@alice
Honestly, I hear so many storys and I see them myself in team meetings, etc. And I always realize: "That's not me, I don't do that."But I do. In my case it is related to my ADHD, that I feel the urge to burst out whatever I have in my mind before I forget about it because there are butterflies on the window!
After I realized that I started to observe myself, try to suppress impulses. Medication helps and I think I have this more under control than ever before.
Not because I count my self as "not all men", but because I realized "actually, me too". So thank you and everyone else who spoke up. Please don't stop. And everyone, please don't stop listen, even if you are not all whatever. Because it could be you anyway.
@momo @alice
Long reply
We all do it; we are human. Things we are passionate about we can't help ourselves.What I am **trying** to learn to do when I interrupt someone else, and I realize it during - I apologize. "Sorry for interrupting, I got ahead of myself. Please continue". If I realize afterwards, I apologize as well of course.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Yeah that is the case and I have done this exact thing too. BUT, it IS a gender thing because we are privileging the gender socialization of men. Because the thing is, why are we asking women to spend OUR energy leaning into men's socialized habits of domination in conversation, instead of asking men to lean into learning how to chill the fuck out and be more cooperative conversationally? (They might even like it better!)
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@alice Yeah that is the case and I have done this exact thing too. BUT, it IS a gender thing because we are privileging the gender socialization of men. Because the thing is, why are we asking women to spend OUR energy leaning into men's socialized habits of domination in conversation, instead of asking men to lean into learning how to chill the fuck out and be more cooperative conversationally? (They might even like it better!)
There was a good NYT article about this a few years ago
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There was a good NYT article about this a few years ago
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@alice Yeah that is the case and I have done this exact thing too. BUT, it IS a gender thing because we are privileging the gender socialization of men. Because the thing is, why are we asking women to spend OUR energy leaning into men's socialized habits of domination in conversation, instead of asking men to lean into learning how to chill the fuck out and be more cooperative conversationally? (They might even like it better!)
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice
Right, I just sipped my tea after that little toot-bonanza I typed (sorry)I loathe that this toxic aggressive shouting match conversation style is considered the norm and accepted.
I have been know to interrupt those interrupting me or others and go "can I/they finish first please?" But oefff doing that drains me emotionally, and yet I do it. It's important
🫂 I'm so happy to know you now are in a happier, healthier place. And sorry you had to endure it before. Big fluffy hearts!
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
I regret that it is necessary to footnote that.
I don't say that I regret you did, nor that I regret "you thought" that, because needing to do that it goes right to the heart of the main point.
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@alice I'm a man who has gotten the same feedback. I think my tendency to listen is a strength and I'm not interested in getting ahead by running my mouth.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Sorry to hear about your shitty time at work.
A lifetime working in the helping professions - including with folks who might politely be described as "challenging" - has given me an acute nose for the type of person (usually but not always a man!) who only respects dominance behaviours, and walks all over those who don't display them. If that's the type of person I'm dealing with, that's how they're gonna be treated - in and outside of work!
But it must be a lot harder for women.
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