I've now seen twice the notion insinuating PHP is somehow still a lesser language.
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@sushee While I _personally_ don't like PHP… but like from an objective perspective it's just *not* that different from all the scripting languages like JavaScript, Python, Ruby, etc… who seem to be be fairly respected.
I'm also confused by how people can think it's lesser. Around 40% of all websites is built with a PHP-based system and one of the biggest social networks was built on it. It can clearly be used to create things.
Personally I think it's cool if someone make stuff and if PHP is one of those tools, cool!
(My dislike is of PHP is mainly based on my mild dislike of scripting languages in general, specifically: I find lack of static typing in languages very awkward to work with personally.)
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I've now seen twice the notion insinuating PHP is somehow still a lesser language. Some people are apparently stuck in a 25 year old notion of PHP.
NOBODY can afford this anymore and if this shit of communities doing it to EACH OTHER doesn't stop, you're just making it easy to be destroyed.
So be in freakin' solidarity with each other for a change.
I challenge you to say something good about the language you dislike the most.
I'm so SO tired of this shit since 1999, really.
I really dislike working in Python, largely because it's so untyped. But I am currently trying to steal context managers for PHP, and would love to steal comprehensions, too.
Python has a similar "get shit done and move on" mentality to it to PHP, which is part of why it's so popular.
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I've now seen twice the notion insinuating PHP is somehow still a lesser language. Some people are apparently stuck in a 25 year old notion of PHP.
NOBODY can afford this anymore and if this shit of communities doing it to EACH OTHER doesn't stop, you're just making it easy to be destroyed.
So be in freakin' solidarity with each other for a change.
I challenge you to say something good about the language you dislike the most.
I'm so SO tired of this shit since 1999, really.
@sushee Ok, challenge accepted. mod_php is and was brilliant. Reduced the barrier of entry to making server side webapps to nearly nothing. Write normal HTML, add some <?php blocks, copy to server. Webapp.
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I've now seen twice the notion insinuating PHP is somehow still a lesser language. Some people are apparently stuck in a 25 year old notion of PHP.
NOBODY can afford this anymore and if this shit of communities doing it to EACH OTHER doesn't stop, you're just making it easy to be destroyed.
So be in freakin' solidarity with each other for a change.
I challenge you to say something good about the language you dislike the most.
I'm so SO tired of this shit since 1999, really.
@sushee any language that still thrives at this point must be working.
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@torb @Crell @sushee No offense, but your "I dislike PHP because it's not typed" is the exact reason why PHP devs wonder where all the ideas about it come from.
I personally haven't written a single PHP project without types and later strict enforcement in the last 10 years. I'd guess 95% of my entire codebase (due to some libraries opting to be backwards compatible) is typed.
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@sushee Ok, challenge accepted. mod_php is and was brilliant. Reduced the barrier of entry to making server side webapps to nearly nothing. Write normal HTML, add some <?php blocks, copy to server. Webapp.
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@torb @Crell @sushee No offense, but your "I dislike PHP because it's not typed" is the exact reason why PHP devs wonder where all the ideas about it come from.
I personally haven't written a single PHP project without types and later strict enforcement in the last 10 years. I'd guess 95% of my entire codebase (due to some libraries opting to be backwards compatible) is typed.
@a_lex_ander @Crell @sushee I mean, my main point here was that even if my premise was true you would still *have to* recognize that it’s not worse than many other popular and relatively respected languages.
Additionally I also wanted to make the point that you can dislike something and still respect it.
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@a_lex_ander @Crell @sushee I mean, my main point here was that even if my premise was true you would still *have to* recognize that it’s not worse than many other popular and relatively respected languages.
Additionally I also wanted to make the point that you can dislike something and still respect it.
@torb @Crell @sushee As I wrote, I'm not trying to attack you in any way. It's just funny how many misconceptions there still are even after a decade. I don't know of any language that seems to be as misunderstood. But then again, someone recently told me monitors in Linux are almost impossible to configure because of all the config files and I genuinely couldn't remember the last time I opened an XF86Config.
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@torb @Crell @sushee As I wrote, I'm not trying to attack you in any way. It's just funny how many misconceptions there still are even after a decade. I don't know of any language that seems to be as misunderstood. But then again, someone recently told me monitors in Linux are almost impossible to configure because of all the config files and I genuinely couldn't remember the last time I opened an XF86Config.
@a_lex_ander I was kinda aware that PHP had gradual typing (as with all scripting languages), so it doesn’t change it *that much* for me. I really like fairly strong and strict type systems. Of course those come with their own tradeoffs (my Swift compile times are at times slow and my the compiler error messages not always the easiest to understand). I suppose I’m willing to pay that particular price.
EDIT: Did not take it as an attack at all! It’s hard to keep detailed track of all tech communities and it was fun to learn more!
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@a_lex_ander I was kinda aware that PHP had gradual typing (as with all scripting languages), so it doesn’t change it *that much* for me. I really like fairly strong and strict type systems. Of course those come with their own tradeoffs (my Swift compile times are at times slow and my the compiler error messages not always the easiest to understand). I suppose I’m willing to pay that particular price.
EDIT: Did not take it as an attack at all! It’s hard to keep detailed track of all tech communities and it was fun to learn more!
@torb @a_lex_ander The difference with PHP is that types are runtime enforced. In python it's ahead of time optional static analysis only. Typescript is compiled. Of gradual languages, PHP actually enforced types. And then there is a robust static analysis tool chain on top of it that's even stronger.
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@solariz @sushee programming language ethnography is fascinating. Germany and Ukraine are php, france has ocaml, Russia is very c++ (at least was in the early aughts), java vs c#. I worked with indian developers and while not remotely knowledgeable about its culture, java seemed to at least within their cultural sphere to be omnipresent.
While people were clowning on php when I lived in Europe, it was usually more in jest. I encountered genuine if not hatred, then dismissal and ridiculing of php and Java developers here in the US, amongst people from whom I really expected better (recurse center alumni).
One reason I think that php gets so much flack here in the US is classism. A lot of businesses here are started by what I’m going to call “hustlers”, people who like building businesses. They will usually get a supply chain going and put a Wordpress site in front because they can muck about with plugins, then hire a php dev or two (because until relatively recently, JavaScript was second grade citizen in wp), and usually hire non-us developers on freelancer.com (which is where I got the job that ultimately made me move to the US). As such, a lot of php developers are lower-class people, often from the global south (while not necessarily lowerclass, I was living in eastern Germany and barely making ends meet because uh autism and German work culture or something). People often without degrees, or working in “software sweat shops” and not all that invested in their craft or not having the opportunities to invest in it.
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@afilina @solariz @sushee it's interesting isn't it. Like I certainly remember us clowning on a whole variety of things.
Now that I feel more culture shock going back to europe than the other way round, I think a) identification with one's job and occupation is much stronger in the US (both a good and a bad thing) and a stronger "belief" that your choices determine who you are, and that the choice of a programming language is thus a statement of value and identity (also a good and a bad thing).
One of the bad sides is that it leads to this more emotionally laden discourse (see llms right now too).
Ofc this is me just rambling, don't ascribe too much to it, but it also feels validating to see that other people notice it too.
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@sushee any language that still thrives at this point must be working.
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@sushee oh gosh, the language I dislike the _most_? I'm not even sure what that would be. Like, I sometimes poke fun at (or outright denigrate) javascript, but it's obviously extremely powerful. and coding in it works well enough. I wouldn't say I dislike it the _most_.
So that leaves, I dunno, objective C or maybe Go, but I don't have enough experience in them to even say something bad about them properly, let alone something good.
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@torb @a_lex_ander The difference with PHP is that types are runtime enforced. In python it's ahead of time optional static analysis only. Typescript is compiled. Of gradual languages, PHP actually enforced types. And then there is a robust static analysis tool chain on top of it that's even stronger.
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I've now seen twice the notion insinuating PHP is somehow still a lesser language. Some people are apparently stuck in a 25 year old notion of PHP.
NOBODY can afford this anymore and if this shit of communities doing it to EACH OTHER doesn't stop, you're just making it easy to be destroyed.
So be in freakin' solidarity with each other for a change.
I challenge you to say something good about the language you dislike the most.
I'm so SO tired of this shit since 1999, really.
@sushee ironically the language i dislike the most is for peripheral reasons to anything about it (i won't name it but it's quite nice design-wise)
unfortunately its association with a reprehensible designer means hup into the memory hole with ya
(not referring to sth in current widespread use)
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@sushee ironically the language i dislike the most is for peripheral reasons to anything about it (i won't name it but it's quite nice design-wise)
unfortunately its association with a reprehensible designer means hup into the memory hole with ya
(not referring to sth in current widespread use)
@erisceleste I actually googled rasmus lerdorf controversy etc etc first because I'm not defending a programming language with an iffy smell
there are some I'm avoiding for that reason.
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@erisceleste I actually googled rasmus lerdorf controversy etc etc first because I'm not defending a programming language with an iffy smell
there are some I'm avoiding for that reason.
@sushee haha nah sorry, one completely unrelated to PHP
Start server, get SSL out of the box, drop script, run everything in parallel.
