Something I have trouble explaining about space travel.
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@ZachWeinersmith Antarctica is cool enough.
@dtl @ZachWeinersmith It’s the rarity value though: I’ve been to Antarctica four times, including spending the winter there. That makes me unusual, but not astronaut-level unusual. Go to the right university department and you’ll meet other people like me, but astronauts? Yeah, rarer than hen’s teeth.
(Unsurprisingly many Antarctic people, myself included, applied for the job Tim Peake eventually got. Some even got interviewed. But ultimately at the time they wanted a test pilot.)
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Something I have trouble explaining about space travel. Like, if you've read my book, you know I think human space faring is probably not economically valuable. It's not a good use of science dollars compared to other areas. I'm even skeptical of the case for inspiration (it doesn't seem to causally related to more aerospace degrees).
But it's also just really cool. Why don't I feel this way about Antarctica or Seabed exploration?
@ZachWeinersmith
Familiarity. If you look at Victorian materials, fiction & non-fiction, they did have that kind of attitude to exploring the unknown parts of the world. Now that they are explored, space is the new frontier.(Also BTW economic value is not a great metric for "what humans should be doing", as the environment can currently testify)
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Something I have trouble explaining about space travel. Like, if you've read my book, you know I think human space faring is probably not economically valuable. It's not a good use of science dollars compared to other areas. I'm even skeptical of the case for inspiration (it doesn't seem to causally related to more aerospace degrees).
But it's also just really cool. Why don't I feel this way about Antarctica or Seabed exploration?
@ZachWeinersmith Antarctic exploration *was* sexy 100-150 years ago, though! We kind of remember Captain Scott's ill-fated South polar expedition, but less so the ferocious international rivalry that drove it (or Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen who got there first and survived).
In contrast, now we have Antarctic bases, familiarity breeds … boredom?
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Something I have trouble explaining about space travel. Like, if you've read my book, you know I think human space faring is probably not economically valuable. It's not a good use of science dollars compared to other areas. I'm even skeptical of the case for inspiration (it doesn't seem to causally related to more aerospace degrees).
But it's also just really cool. Why don't I feel this way about Antarctica or Seabed exploration?
@ZachWeinersmith
Space travel certainly has those downsides.But consider: do we want humans to be permanently confined to Earth?
Some would say 'yes', but anyone who says 'no' should consider that today impacts tomorrow.
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@ZachWeinersmith Antarctica is the number one place to find meteorites (you find a rock on the ice sheet, where else can it come from but space?). It is a source of knowledge about space that is substantially cheaper than going out there!
@DrEvanGowan @ZachWeinersmith going to Antarctica isn't cheap either...
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@ZachWeinersmith Antarctic exploration *was* sexy 100-150 years ago, though! We kind of remember Captain Scott's ill-fated South polar expedition, but less so the ferocious international rivalry that drove it (or Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen who got there first and survived).
In contrast, now we have Antarctic bases, familiarity breeds … boredom?
@cstross @ZachWeinersmith
Amundsen–Scott Was the original “Heated Rivalry” on ice. -
@ZachWeinersmith Antarctic exploration *was* sexy 100-150 years ago, though! We kind of remember Captain Scott's ill-fated South polar expedition, but less so the ferocious international rivalry that drove it (or Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen who got there first and survived).
In contrast, now we have Antarctic bases, familiarity breeds … boredom?
@cstross @ZachWeinersmith Off topic, but a podcast on the Scott expedition was how I found out just how bad scurvy was and what *specifically* it did. I still have occasional trauma flashbacks to “and then the scar from when he was sixteen opened up”….
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Something I have trouble explaining about space travel. Like, if you've read my book, you know I think human space faring is probably not economically valuable. It's not a good use of science dollars compared to other areas. I'm even skeptical of the case for inspiration (it doesn't seem to causally related to more aerospace degrees).
But it's also just really cool. Why don't I feel this way about Antarctica or Seabed exploration?
@ZachWeinersmith I think the attraction is basically big freaking rockets. All that fire and drama that submersibles or snowmobiles lack. More action movie, less Attenborough documentary.
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@DrEvanGowan @ZachWeinersmith going to Antarctica isn't cheap either...
@bartjan @DrEvanGowan @ZachWeinersmith I have to money to go to Antarctica. From the 60 million it cost to go to space, I'm short a "little" over 59 million.
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@ZachWeinersmith Antarctic exploration *was* sexy 100-150 years ago, though! We kind of remember Captain Scott's ill-fated South polar expedition, but less so the ferocious international rivalry that drove it (or Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen who got there first and survived).
In contrast, now we have Antarctic bases, familiarity breeds … boredom?
@cstross @ZachWeinersmith Exactly. Similar for undersea exploration in the 1940s to 1960s (roughly). What makes space special is its enduring and outsize role in popular culture. "Antarctic opera" or "Undersea opera" don't have the same draw as their space equivalent.
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@ZachWeinersmith Antarctic exploration *was* sexy 100-150 years ago, though! We kind of remember Captain Scott's ill-fated South polar expedition, but less so the ferocious international rivalry that drove it (or Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen who got there first and survived).
In contrast, now we have Antarctic bases, familiarity breeds … boredom?
@cstross @ZachWeinersmith I feel compelled to mention the number of 1900s and 1910s science fiction boys novels about arctic or antarctic exploration.
I just finished "through the air to the north pole" a not especially noteworthy entrant in the genre.
This kind of thing was absolutely the stuff of dreams and ambition prior to the age of commercial flight.
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@ZachWeinersmith Antarctic exploration *was* sexy 100-150 years ago, though! We kind of remember Captain Scott's ill-fated South polar expedition, but less so the ferocious international rivalry that drove it (or Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen who got there first and survived).
In contrast, now we have Antarctic bases, familiarity breeds … boredom?
@cstross @ZachWeinersmith Perhaps unsurprisingly, here in Denmark we *do* remember Roald Amundsen. There are streets named after him and the like.
(But we have little if any cultural memory of Scott.)
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@cstross @ZachWeinersmith Perhaps unsurprisingly, here in Denmark we *do* remember Roald Amundsen. There are streets named after him and the like.
(But we have little if any cultural memory of Scott.)
@datarama @cstross @ZachWeinersmith
TBF, Scott didn't make it.
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@datarama @cstross @ZachWeinersmith
TBF, Scott didn't make it.
@lemgandi @datarama @ZachWeinersmith Scott *did* make it to the South Pole! But he got there weeks after Amundsen then his entire team died before they got back to base. (Killed by spectacularly bad weather, even by Antarctic standards.)
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@lemgandi @datarama @ZachWeinersmith Scott *did* make it to the South Pole! But he got there weeks after Amundsen then his entire team died before they got back to base. (Killed by spectacularly bad weather, even by Antarctic standards.)
@cstross @datarama @ZachWeinersmith
Ah, you right and I am wrong.
Not makin' it back is a pretty big deal tho.
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Something I have trouble explaining about space travel. Like, if you've read my book, you know I think human space faring is probably not economically valuable. It's not a good use of science dollars compared to other areas. I'm even skeptical of the case for inspiration (it doesn't seem to causally related to more aerospace degrees).
But it's also just really cool. Why don't I feel this way about Antarctica or Seabed exploration?
@ZachWeinersmith Pls read "Terror and Erebus" or watch the (Prime, huh) series "The Terror". Back then - that was all the rage!! Oh and Simmonds has another one (if you prefer reading), "The Abominable" - no TV series on that one, but it's a roll!
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@lemgandi @datarama @ZachWeinersmith Scott *did* make it to the South Pole! But he got there weeks after Amundsen then his entire team died before they got back to base. (Killed by spectacularly bad weather, even by Antarctic standards.)
@cstross @lemgandi @datarama @ZachWeinersmith nope. Killed by arrogant imperial incompetence and cutting things too fine.
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@cstross @lemgandi @datarama @ZachWeinersmith nope. Killed by arrogant imperial incompetence and cutting things too fine.
@alanpaxton @cstross @lemgandi @datarama @ZachWeinersmith I would not call it “arrogant imperial incompetence.” First a rendezvous failed as the rest of Scott’s team simply failed to show up as expected, and then after prolonged bad weather, Scott and his last companions got stuck another 10 days in a blizzard just 20 km (12 mi) short of the final depot / meeting place.
All these arctic/antarctic explorers had to have some level of hubris to try so hard to be first. Given the competition, nobody was going to be first without significant risks.
The real shocker with Antarctic exploration is that there weren’t MORE deaths. These expeditions were all inherently risky. There were too many unknowns, & safety margins were not high enough to protect against all risks.
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@alanpaxton @cstross @lemgandi @datarama @ZachWeinersmith I would not call it “arrogant imperial incompetence.” First a rendezvous failed as the rest of Scott’s team simply failed to show up as expected, and then after prolonged bad weather, Scott and his last companions got stuck another 10 days in a blizzard just 20 km (12 mi) short of the final depot / meeting place.
All these arctic/antarctic explorers had to have some level of hubris to try so hard to be first. Given the competition, nobody was going to be first without significant risks.
The real shocker with Antarctic exploration is that there weren’t MORE deaths. These expeditions were all inherently risky. There were too many unknowns, & safety margins were not high enough to protect against all risks.
@alanpaxton @cstross @lemgandi @datarama @ZachWeinersmith Special shout-out to Shackleton: hard to believe he didn’t lose anyone from Endurance. (Though three of his “Lost Men” laying supply caches did die, as is oft forgotten.)
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@bigblen @cstross @ZachWeinersmith As far as I know there aren't any Amundsen statues in Denmark, but there are some in Norway. In Oslo, there's actually a monument with five statues, one of each of Amundsen's expedition members who reached the South Pole (including himself, of course).
I used to live just a couple of streets away from one of those streets named after him. When I was a kid and we learned about the history of polar exploration, we got a long story of Amundsen's expedition - and Scott got only a brief mention.
