Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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@carnage4life @evan Strongly agree. The current AI companies have done much to be criticized but the tech itself, especially the open source and local versions (which this community should love) is actually a positive force here. We need to have discussions to understand the differences.
@scottjenson @carnage4life @evan There are some valid arguments to be against our current LLM-dominated AI landscape (and also some to be optimistic), The current debate is mostly "AI haters" vs "AI bros", which is a pity. It's extremely exhausting to constantly see these black and white takes.
Personally I want to be optimistic about this tech, but I'm not confident enough to see it as more than a fancy autocomplete at the moment, especially with the slew of security nightmares we've seen regarding agentic tools such as OpenClaw recently.
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@osma The number don't lie, active users on Mastodon are going DOWN not up, we're hemorrhaging users, most likely because we're chasing many of them away with these 'purity tests'. I certainly am not experiencing this diversity you are referring to.
That's the point. Unmoderated servers see a completely different view, while the mainstream is heavily policed - and the majority of the still active seem to like it that way.
@scottjenson -
@scottjenson I’m not interested in following any “AI people”. That doesn’t make it an echo chamber. We don’t need equal amounts of people who love puppies and want to kill puppies, not everything needs to be equally represented.
@Gargron @scottjenson what about some light *kicking* of puppies?
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@evan @cratermoon Exactly, even asking that question "What value do they bring" is kind of scary.
It's a fine line, I get it. We draw the line at nazis and scammers but let's not cross the line into "intellectual purity" tests
@scottjenson @evan @cratermoon
I feel like missing context. Let's layout it first:
- Mastodon is a technology for federated instances
- Admins make descisions about what is and is not on their instances. By virtue of control, admins can also enforce their own rules, on their own realms.
- It is federated, without central dictatum from whoever/whatever.What is the issue?
Are you talking about Mastodon org's policies?
Are you talking about some tech features that shift control? -
@scottjenson @carnage4life always has been, to be honest. Niche platform means you need to be fed up with mainstream enough to leave your friends, high barrier to entry and general decentralization struggles cause mostly technical folks to be here. Not surprised, that the opinions here are quite homogenous
@Igigog @scottjenson @carnage4life They are not homogenous, they are just louder than other voices. And they often sound like talking about a cult.
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@scottjenson @Gargron it may be that “AI people” are sometimes not treated nicely or fairly. And we shouldn’t tolerate abuse. But I also really value that we rarely see AI hype which is often misinformation and disinformation that pollutes other platforms. That’s not just a personal preference but super important for a healthy media environment.
@scottjenson @Gargron Of course AI is a pretty vague concept and it’s not all hype and BS and I think your point holds for this. That said imploring people to be nice rarely works. It’s like driver safety education campaigns rarely do anything to improve safety. Systematic improvements for making this better for marginalized groups will also help non-hype AI people
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@Igigog @scottjenson @carnage4life They are not homogenous, they are just louder than other voices. And they often sound like talking about a cult.
@Igigog @scottjenson @carnage4life (If we hadn't Bridgyfed and Flipboard, I would have left a long time ago.)
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@scottjenson @vfrmedia I don’t agree with the assertion people are being shooed away. Away from who? This isn’t one space.
But if Mastodon feel thy are, then make the tooling to solve that. And yeah; it’s the same tooling as black people wanted and it’s damning it takes rich white guys complaining to be considered as a problem worth fretting over and maybe tackling now.
Mastodon isn’t a monoculture. Mastodon is a tech stack.
not getting "sufficient engagement" on toots isn't the same as being "shooed away".
I wouldn't consider the person being quoted as a grifter and TBH I agree with a lot of what he is saying, but until recently I thought he was some kind of marketing person who never really replied here and was just looking for a "one way platform" (like many who want to go viral/popular and promote a "personal brand").
Also what might seem "lukewarm" about politics can also be simply because everyone broadly agrees with you, and many don't want the "battlefield of ideas" culture that is prevalent on many other social networks..
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@scottjenson @evan @cratermoon
I feel like missing context. Let's layout it first:
- Mastodon is a technology for federated instances
- Admins make descisions about what is and is not on their instances. By virtue of control, admins can also enforce their own rules, on their own realms.
- It is federated, without central dictatum from whoever/whatever.What is the issue?
Are you talking about Mastodon org's policies?
Are you talking about some tech features that shift control?@scottjenson @evan @cratermoon
On a human side:
- Media that doesn't kill my attention span will always be slower.
- Worthy ideas, take time to absorb.
- Look for pools with high signal to noise ratio. Especially for signals that stand the test of time.vs
Someone's engagement numbers are lower.
There is no floods of messages that ain't properly read. -
@evan @scottjenson @MozillaAI Mastodon as a community is quite hostile to AI and anything that isn’t a criticism of AI is viewed with skepticism at best and typically with hostility as the default.
It’s unfortunate because, as in your Mozilla example, there is still time to shape how AI is used in our industry. It’s better to engage and try to influence it versus stick your head in the sand and have the change thrusted upon you.
@carnage4life@mas.to @evan@cosocial.ca @scottjenson@social.coop @MozillaAI@mastodon.social I mean, Mozilla is doing exactly the same as other corpos, except in their case they just privacy-wash it
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@scottjenson @Gargron There is nothing, absolutely nothing, stopping anyone from creating and cultivating an AI community on Mastodon. Start a server. Knock yourself out.
But expecting to *farm acceptance* from a group of people, one which most members vastly dislike AI, is quite the hubris.
But sure, the community at large is the problem.
Clean up your kitchen and maybe folks will join you for a meal.
@FeloniousPunk There ought to be an AI instance which all the bros and boosters can go to, and then I can block it in one go. That would be ultra-efficient.
Unfortunately the real fedi is a lot more messy. -
@scottjenson @carnage4life so, what can we do about it? One thing is just being brave enough to talk honestly about how AI affects your life and your work.
Another is calling out bad behaviour. If someone you know is yelling at a stranger to die in a fire because they used Claude Code, maybe give them some private feedback that it's not cool.
@evan @scottjenson @carnage4life sure, let’s take steps to prevent abuse and make this a more welcoming and inclusive space, but let’s stop pretending that “AI users” are a marginalized community. It’s like arguing that cops or Republicans are a protected class. Center actual marginalized groups in these discussions! If they feel welcome then there’s a better chance non-hype AI users will too
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@octothorpe i agree they are not exactly the same. But "inclusivity" is *always* a complicated topic and never an easy one to solve. Mastodon has always tried to be a safe haven for marginalized people (although it has been a bumpy road and could be better!)
My point is that many of the replies to my post were basically "AI bad, they shouldn't be here" and while I respect anyone's right to think that, it's something else to say we should actively chase them away. They are not nazis and they are not scammers (well, most of them aren't)
I'm just saying the kicking people out for their ideas is a slippery slope and one which we should discuss more and be very careful with.
@scottjenson I think it comes down to a few things… I see a lot of civil AI talk with folk who use the tech, so that does exist, and will presumably remain.
But there’s the notion of The Influencer, which is an impedance mismatch for the fediverse. You literally can’t be a professional influencer in the same way here. This is technical (no algo, federation, etc) but also social. No one is guaranteed an audience here. It’s opt in. That’s de facto anti-influencer. I don’t think that’s bad.
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson @Gargron I just came back to my Mastodon account and one of the first things I see is people who have an interest in something being compared to puppy-killers by the "head" of Mastodon.
<turns it back off again>
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@panos @evan @carnage4life @scottjenson This is what I'm talking about. You're both minimizing/denying harms and saying they don't matter. This is one of the biggest problems with LLMs, they turn people into apologists for the fossil fuel industry because they don't want to think they're helping destroy the world.
*If* flying is more harmful, that's no excuse. There's always something more harmful until you reach the top, and then the excuse will be it's too important or too difficult to stop.
@skyfaller if flying is more harmful, and one still flies, then there is no convincing argument that a behaviour less harmful by orders or magnitude is absolutely unacceptable.
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@scottjenson @Gargron I just came back to my Mastodon account and one of the first things I see is people who have an interest in something being compared to puppy-killers by the "head" of Mastodon.
<turns it back off again>
@bogosian @scottjenson I’m not head of Mastodon! Have a good day.
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson@social.coop @carnage4life@mas.to
From my experience, it's a phenomenon far from just Mastodon.
As a bit of context, I mostly interact (or at least used to until a few weeks ago) with other Fediverse platforms such as those comprising the threadiverse (e.g. Lemmy, Piefed, MBin, etc.) as well as Mastodon and others, having been settled on a Sharkey/Calckey instance as my Fediverse daily driver. I got accounts across a few different platforms such as PixelFed (where I mostly post my own arts) and Mastodon (which I mostly use to federate my posts from both platforms).
I'm also quite eccentric, I don't really have a "tribe" or circle because I don't really fit labels. If I were to label myself, I'd be a rebellious, solitary Lilith-centered occultist because that's exactly who I've been lately (since roughly 2 yrs ago). This context is important bc what I'm recounting about my online experience may be biased due to this eccentricity of mine.
This said, the part of the Fediverse I've been slightly "successful" in interacting with is the threadiverse. By "successful", I mean threadiverse is where I tend (it's far from a certainty) to afford the most conversations (albeit extremely limited to the scope of the thread).
Outside the threadiverse, my experience is a complete vacuum.
My PixelFed posts, for example, got absolutely no replies whatsoever. At best, "numeric reactions" (upvotes and reposts), which feels hollow for someone whose (artistic and/or ritualistic) content tries to actually talk to people (you can quite notice that on this very reply I'm writing, in all of its length and verbosity), hoping to find those who hold similar beliefs (because the religious/esoteric aspect of my existence have been extremely meaningful to me).
Mastodon used to have a global feed where I got to see and to be seen from outside my "solipsistic bubble"... until mastodon.social suddenly decided to turn it off. To illustrate its importance, your post, for example, reached me through global feed (Calckey's). So it's not a bad thing as I hear people saying about the global feed sometimes.
A year ago, I used to have a Bluesky, too. Something similar used to happen: few (if any) textual interactions, higher numeric reactions, something that led me to delete my Bluesky account. Other social platforms I (used to) use (were/)have been even more devoid of the "social" aspect.
In the end it feels like the entire Web is turning into some kind of "Dark forest" from the "Dark forest hypothesis", the one that states that we don't see extraterrestrial civilizations because they're hiding themselves amidst the cosmic darkness and silence, out of fear that other civilizations would be hostile. Perhaps there are still humans on the Web, but they're too afraid of what they'd find at the other side of the online connection, so they end up retreating: that's Earth, that's us, the Pale Blue Dot fading into radio silence amidst the loud screech of our machines. -
@scottjenson @carnage4life I've been privately sharing this link to a post by @MozillaAI , an Open Source non-profit announcing an Open Source AI project to make development with AI safer, more efficient, and less costly. They got brigaded in a pretty threatening way, and people I know and respect jumped in to join the dogpile.
mozilla.ai (@MozillaAI@mastodon.social)
Attached: 1 image Agents shouldn’t have to figure everything out from scratch. Right now, they do. cq is a Stack Overflow for agents, where knowledge is shared and improved over time. Less repetition. More reliable outcomes. See how it works: https://link.mozilla.ai/cq-stack-overflow-for-agents
Mastodon (mastodon.social)
@evan Fwiw, examples like that are one of the main reasons why I'm pretty quiet on this platform. I love the idea of ambiently sharing things with friends and peers, but I'm just not ready to deal with something like that.
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@scottjenson
wowowo please don't turn things around. AI people are _not_ marginalized, it's the exact opposite. AI people are rich, white, male tech people who see the increase in personal comfort as more important than others' actual life. Those are the people who are _anti-black_. By letting AI people in you are not learning the lessons of the past. You are specifically repeating the mistake, letting racists, sexists, ableists in, pushing away the people who made activitypub what it is today.
Please think better about what "marginalized" actually means@rakoo oh FFS put your pitchfork down. You're creating a strawman and claiming it's me. I'm not equating the two! I'm saying "intellectual purity" tests cut both ways. If you're willing to slam all "AI people" as techbros influencers and want to kick them out, that can slide into any other topic or group.
My goal was to say inclusivity is hard, *especially* when it concerns groups that aren't marginalized. But not caring about these people makes it even easier to then affect marginalized peope.
I'm bringing this topic up BECAUSE black twitter was chased off this platform in 2022 and I'm really pissed that we haven't learned our lesson, we're still chasing people off (even if they aren't marginalized)
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@skyfaller if flying is more harmful, and one still flies, then there is no convincing argument that a behaviour less harmful by orders or magnitude is absolutely unacceptable.
@evan @panos @carnage4life @scottjenson I do not concede that LLMs are "orders of magnitude" less harmful than flying. Also I do not fly.
Anyone dismissing LLM harms doesn't understand the scale of the climate crisis or of LLMs. Sadly, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” I can't force this understanding onto anyone in a few toots, they would have to want to understand, when the industry requires LLMs if you want to eat.
