Well, I just returned from a VERY interesting #Indivisible #SantaFe (ISF) meeting.
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How to give the police a veto on protests without technically giving them a formal veto…
@DavidM_yeg @heidilifeldman I've lost count of the number of groups I've heard of who eventually decided to just stop asking for permission to exercise their rights.
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@heidilifeldman we just looked up what it costs here in San Francisco, and it was listed as $160-$2,400. Didn't see if that was per-block. But that's a whole lot less than what you've been quoted.
Editing to add: I'm not completely confident of those numbers, it was a quick search for permit costs here in San Francisco. Would be interesting to get actually publicly documented costs in various cities.
Found this: https://www.sf.gov/get-a-permit-to-close-a-street-for-a-special-event
I reserved a 36 hour street shutdown in Little Rock with about $500 cash deposit 10 years ago.
Two blocks and a major intersection reduced from 5 lanes to 1.
Had to cover about $1k in traffic barrier placement/removal --mainly because of the intersection-- and cops for security & traffic at roughly $40/hr. Had to have one cop on the entire time, five during busy time (when we were serving alcohol). Came to about $7k.
But that was for a Friday night thru Saturday night as a commercial enterprise.We did single afternoon block parties for under $1200. That's including the required two cops supervising booze on the street.
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I’ll let you know if the City of #SantaFe course corrects and plans street closures for NK3. In the meantime, some information about #NoKings 3.0 in #SantaFe #NewMexico on March 28. It would help us out if ANYBODY interested registered for info from us via this portal. https://mobilize.us/s/htumHo. (Use an email mask to avoid having your email address sold - we can’t control that, we don’t run the Mobilize platform.) We’d love a record of how many support the event, want to know about it. 21/
And if you have a few bucks to spare to help Indivisible Santa Fe pay for No Kings 3 here in northern New Mexico, that would be great! You know my mantra: small dollar donations add up!
Thanks for listening to this story. https://secure.actblue.com/donate/indivisiblesf371306689
A fundraising post on the ISF website: https://indivisiblesantafe.org/donate-to-no-kings-3/
22/22
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@DavidM_yeg @heidilifeldman I've lost count of the number of groups I've heard of who eventually decided to just stop asking for permission to exercise their rights.
@slowenough @DavidM_yeg I believe in trying to comply with appropriate permit procedures. If not appropriate, happy to pivot to plan B.
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Well, I just returned from a VERY interesting #Indivisible #SantaFe (ISF) meeting. Santa Fe’s new mayor was summoned to the meeting by a #NewMexico state legislator in attendance. This led to me having to supply the meeting with an impromptu presentation on First Amendment law and why the City of Santa Fe cannot lawfully charge ISF $25,000+ for a closed streets permit for #NoKings on March 28. 1/
@heidilifeldman It's wild to me, that Americans have to pay vast sums to exercise free speech while in Germany organizing a protest is free (though authorities can stipulate that organizers bring a certain number of stewards to keep people on the route, and presumably there is a possible cost related to equipping them with bibs).
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And if you have a few bucks to spare to help Indivisible Santa Fe pay for No Kings 3 here in northern New Mexico, that would be great! You know my mantra: small dollar donations add up!
Thanks for listening to this story. https://secure.actblue.com/donate/indivisiblesf371306689
A fundraising post on the ISF website: https://indivisiblesantafe.org/donate-to-no-kings-3/
22/22
@heidilifeldman Interesting thread! Great insights to behind the scenes community organizing. We use to tell the police when and where we were going to do a protest or march. We'd tell 'em we'll stay on the sidewalks and not block them. Come the day of action, hey, it's not our fault 2000 showed up and spilled into the streets instead of the 200 we thought would attend.
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I’ll let you know if the City of #SantaFe course corrects and plans street closures for NK3. In the meantime, some information about #NoKings 3.0 in #SantaFe #NewMexico on March 28. It would help us out if ANYBODY interested registered for info from us via this portal. https://mobilize.us/s/htumHo. (Use an email mask to avoid having your email address sold - we can’t control that, we don’t run the Mobilize platform.) We’d love a record of how many support the event, want to know about it. 21/
@heidilifeldman@mastodon.social From a German point of view, it all sounds very strange. The German Grundgesetz (constitution) was written in 1949 under US supervision. Demonstrating is a fundamental right. Demonstrations are not permited, but registered (angemeldet). Registration means that the organizer informs the state when and where a demonstration will take place and how many participants are expected. Usually, the police then appear at the demonstration site and discuss with the organizer whether the demonstration will take place on the street or on the sidewalk. In Berlin alone, 8,000 demonstrations take place every year. It is a ritual in which the police and demonstrators know and adhere to their respective roles. After violent incidents, the state may attempt to collect damages. However, this is usually rejected by the courts. For years, the Love parade with 1 Million participants was the largest demonstration in Berlin. When the state no longer wanted to accept it as a political demonstration, it moved elsewhere. Today a renewed love parade demonstration is taking place in the summer. The organizers are taking great care to broadcast political demands over loudspeakers during the demonstration to avoid fees. -
@heidilifeldman@mastodon.social From a German point of view, it all sounds very strange. The German Grundgesetz (constitution) was written in 1949 under US supervision. Demonstrating is a fundamental right. Demonstrations are not permited, but registered (angemeldet). Registration means that the organizer informs the state when and where a demonstration will take place and how many participants are expected. Usually, the police then appear at the demonstration site and discuss with the organizer whether the demonstration will take place on the street or on the sidewalk. In Berlin alone, 8,000 demonstrations take place every year. It is a ritual in which the police and demonstrators know and adhere to their respective roles. After violent incidents, the state may attempt to collect damages. However, this is usually rejected by the courts. For years, the Love parade with 1 Million participants was the largest demonstration in Berlin. When the state no longer wanted to accept it as a political demonstration, it moved elsewhere. Today a renewed love parade demonstration is taking place in the summer. The organizers are taking great care to broadcast political demands over loudspeakers during the demonstration to avoid fees.
@Life_is From a U.S. legal point of view, it was all very strange. I’ve had different experiences with different municipalities and authorities over the years. Many take an approach similar to the one you describe in Germany.
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At this point, I explained that these fees were, IMO, an unconstitutional burden on ISF’s freedom of expression. If the police would not take a more reasonable approach, ISF would revert to announcing a recommended route for a sidewalk march, something which does not require a permit. This, by the way, was what the city special event official kept mentioning as an alternative to closing the streets. 9/
> an unconstitutional burden on ISF’s freedom of expression
Also on the right to petition for a redress of grievances?
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I won’t belabor all the happenings at the second meeting. Suffice it to say that when we said we had thoughts about a route that should, based on their information provided at the first meeting, reduce costs, the police said that actually the cost for the original route was not a minimum of $11,000, it was minimum of $25,000. Moreover, police said, that would be minimum cost for ANY street closures. 8/
@heidilifeldman
That's a rather steep amount for the local fascists to be charging to beat up and/or gas the people paying it to exercise a fundamental democratic right
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@Life_is From a U.S. legal point of view, it was all very strange. I’ve had different experiences with different municipalities and authorities over the years. Many take an approach similar to the one you describe in Germany.
@heidilifeldman
It should be viewed as straight up supression tactics. -
@heidilifeldman
It should be viewed as straight up supression tactics.@heidilifeldman @Life_is @dzwiedziu "you can have free speech and demonstrations when you have enough money" This is, where it leads to.
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@heidilifeldman @Life_is @dzwiedziu "you can have free speech and demonstrations when you have enough money" This is, where it leads to.
@Dodo_sipping
Not quite, as the 11-25k figures were just “preliminary”. So I can easily imagine if ISF would gather all the required initial sum the end bill could easily balloon after the protest, enough to force the organisation into working to repay instead of organising.It's not about free speech being costly, it's about perpetually barring it from organised people.
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@Dodo_sipping
Not quite, as the 11-25k figures were just “preliminary”. So I can easily imagine if ISF would gather all the required initial sum the end bill could easily balloon after the protest, enough to force the organisation into working to repay instead of organising.It's not about free speech being costly, it's about perpetually barring it from organised people.
@heidilifeldman Nazis have that money. Just sayin... @Life_is @dzwiedziu
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And if you have a few bucks to spare to help Indivisible Santa Fe pay for No Kings 3 here in northern New Mexico, that would be great! You know my mantra: small dollar donations add up!
Thanks for listening to this story. https://secure.actblue.com/donate/indivisiblesf371306689
A fundraising post on the ISF website: https://indivisiblesantafe.org/donate-to-no-kings-3/
22/22
Renting the CGI shit-plane is expensive, you know
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Well, I just returned from a VERY interesting #Indivisible #SantaFe (ISF) meeting. Santa Fe’s new mayor was summoned to the meeting by a #NewMexico state legislator in attendance. This led to me having to supply the meeting with an impromptu presentation on First Amendment law and why the City of Santa Fe cannot lawfully charge ISF $25,000+ for a closed streets permit for #NoKings on March 28. 1/
@heidilifeldman this is beyond frustrating and sadly something I’m familiar with in the Bay Area.
Cities with lots of billionaires seem to really like punishing regular citizen’s 1st Amendment rights. There’s a word for that…what’s that called?
I’m going to share your thread in our @roots newsletter for activists this week. Not enough people are aware of these shenanigans
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Many asked me if I thought the city would change its position or would sua sponte close streets.
I said I doubted it. 20/
@heidilifeldman so disappointing but also so common (my oldest is involved in organizing to the degree you are). I think this is one of the major reasons so many of us are disappointed and frustrated with Democrats these days. They seem to be shifting rightward and contributing to the erosions of our rights rather than helping us vigorously defend them. And this is in Santa Fe, NM where we are “blue” top to (mostly) bottom.
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Well, I just returned from a VERY interesting #Indivisible #SantaFe (ISF) meeting. Santa Fe’s new mayor was summoned to the meeting by a #NewMexico state legislator in attendance. This led to me having to supply the meeting with an impromptu presentation on First Amendment law and why the City of Santa Fe cannot lawfully charge ISF $25,000+ for a closed streets permit for #NoKings on March 28. 1/
Am I misreading this, or is the mayor being a dick?
Dude, if something costs $25K and people find an alternative approach that doesnt cost $25K, that's *normal*, and not at all like building a house without a permit.
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@Dodo_sipping
Not quite, as the 11-25k figures were just “preliminary”. So I can easily imagine if ISF would gather all the required initial sum the end bill could easily balloon after the protest, enough to force the organisation into working to repay instead of organising.It's not about free speech being costly, it's about perpetually barring it from organised people.
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Well, I just returned from a VERY interesting #Indivisible #SantaFe (ISF) meeting. Santa Fe’s new mayor was summoned to the meeting by a #NewMexico state legislator in attendance. This led to me having to supply the meeting with an impromptu presentation on First Amendment law and why the City of Santa Fe cannot lawfully charge ISF $25,000+ for a closed streets permit for #NoKings on March 28. 1/
This sounds like bureaucrats and departments making up 'policy'. Nearly 20 years ago I served on a Santa Fe city committee, and observed a fair amount of that.
