I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
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I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
@rradczewski I saw a pbs docudrama recently it was just amazing what they did to people when it was their system all along. Horrifying.
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I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
Nice summary of a decades long scandal that is far from over.
Now, automate the errors via AI -- and join them to the big big company PR that such software is virtually "error free," rather than bad 20% or more of the time. So error free, you could use it to evaluate whether a prospective voter was a citizen or not.
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I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
@rradczewski yes I have heard of this, on a pod I think. (San Diego CA USA.) Disgusting and, uh, well I already said where I am so... It made me sad leave it there ...
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@rradczewski the particularly crazy thing is how well known the software defects were. Computer Weekly were writing about it in 2008, and Private Eye shortly after.
It was common knowledge enough to be a topic of small talk in the IT industry in the UK, but there were still hundreds of convictions after these reports.@bashtoni @rradczewski it’s been said, but can’t be repeated enough that Computer Weekly did excellent journalism on this. They didn’t let it go. Private eye too.
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I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
@rradczewski I think this is an interesting example, how a "we don't do software for nuclear power plants" to play down on sloppy programming can escalate to legal issues and destroy lives.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR SLOPPY SOFTWARE DEVELOPEMENT. NEVER. however trivial your field of work might feel.
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@pietkuip @rradczewski this is also bad, but it is not similar to the Post Office Horizon case. Not remotely.
@sleepingexplorer @pietkuip @rradczewski you are wrong about it not being comparable. The problem was not just because of people hunting down fraud, but also because the targets were picked by an algorithm (i.e. software). It completely destroyed peoples lives, also of their children. And to be clear - most of the targets were absolutely innocent. The algorithm used things like the area were they lived, the type of job they had and used racial profiling
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I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
Watched it here in US on PBS, found it as I watch for shows w/ Toby Jones. It's Orwellian, and certainly something similar can/will/may be happening here.
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I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
@rradczewski so much this! I just read a blog post advocating for no longer checking for bugs because AI can code review better than humans can and this was the very next thing I saw. This unhinged AI mania is going to hurt people
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@sleepingexplorer @pietkuip @rradczewski you are wrong about it not being comparable. The problem was not just because of people hunting down fraud, but also because the targets were picked by an algorithm (i.e. software). It completely destroyed peoples lives, also of their children. And to be clear - most of the targets were absolutely innocent. The algorithm used things like the area were they lived, the type of job they had and used racial profiling
@Shadedlady @pietkuip @rradczewski I did not dispute that it was awful.
But I do not believe you can look into Horizon in any depth and think they are similar. -
I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
@rradczewski @aral Watch Mr Bates v The Post Office. ITV four part drama if you want to know more. The government is still dragging its heels over the compensations payments. 236 subpostmasters went to jail over the faulty Horizon software made by Fujitsu, over a 1000 prosecuted. 13 Suicides 10 attempts……
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@deech @rradczewski There's a miniseries with some big name UK actors in it that was quite engrossing. Toby Jones as Mr. Bates vs. The Post Office - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Bates_vs_The_Post_Office
@tezoatlipoca @deech @rradczewski recommended!
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@rradczewski yes I have heard of this, on a pod I think. (San Diego CA USA.) Disgusting and, uh, well I already said where I am so... It made me sad leave it there ...
@stalbaum @rradczewski
The series Mr Bates vs the post office tells this story beautifully -
I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
Weird how no one has been jailed for causing this mess .
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I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
@rradczewski indeed, #GenAI / #LLMs and vibe coding are going to make this commonplace.
What shocked me was that as this unfolded it was obviously a fuck up somewhere. So many sub postmasters being prosecuted for stealing tens of thousands of pounds without any evidence of where that money went... and nobody thought hang on, really?
It was so obvious to me, but the system had no way to recognise and recover before it was obvious even to politicians.
Politicians: let's make the system worse.
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I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
@rradczewski Outside UK but heard of it already while brewing.
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I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
@rradczewski DAMN! I had absolutely no idea!
Being thoroughly 'murican, most of the british news I see is about Royal Scandals.
I'd better finish reading that article. Then do it again. So many deaths. So much heartache.
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I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
@rradczewski omg that's horrible!
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@pietkuip how so?
@rradczewski
The belief in "the computer". The way people's entire lives and families were destroyed. The way all signs were disregarded at all levels, also by the judiciary.And finally, parliamentary inquests.
(I am not deeply knowledgeable about either scandal. But I keep warning Swedes that want more hunting after fraud in social benefits, also by coupling different computer systems, algorithms etc.)
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@rradczewski
I really enjoyed the docudrama Mr. Bates vs. The Post Office. It was shown on PBS Masterpiece Theater over here.@craig_groeschel @rradczewski Thank you! I'm watching it tonight.
PBS Masterpiece Theater
The Real Story of Mr. Bates vs the Post Office
https://www.pbs.org/show/the-real-story-of-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office/
also, besides the documentary, there's an acclaimed PBS TV series, with top-notch actors, also about the whole affair. (THOUSANDS of people were unfairly attacked, sued and smeared.)
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/shows/mr-bates-vs-the-post-office/
#History #Injustice #Law -
I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):
For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.
Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.
@rradczewski It is a heart breaking story and those responsible have never been made to pay. The little guys who ran the post offices got shafted because big tech screwed up big time
