Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
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@isaacfreeman
@alice
Idk if this is helpful, but as a woman who used to work in software, one phrase I wish some of my male colleagues could have learnt was "how much do you already know about this topic?", to be deployed *before* explaining the entire topic in minute detail. "How much do you need to know about this topic?" is a good one, as well.@isaacfreeman
@alice
Oops.. I didn't realise this thread was so old, sorry!
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice it's because men are arseholes. That's it.
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@alice I hate interrupting, I find it very rude and I don't do it irl and in my job, which involves a lot of presentations. One of my directors interrupts on regular basis, often asking about the previous topic just after I move on, although she is a softly spoken person, although I blame Teams for that. Face to face she interrpts much quicker, often takes over, then starts telling others what to do and forgets that I was presenting, so I have to remind her. I try to see the funny side of it.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice I sometimes talk over people because I'm excited, but not deliberately like that. However, I've gotten to an age where I have less patience with people who talk over me, and I am blunt enough to tell them to shut up while I'm talking.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Over the years, I've seen this extensively. It's especially bad towards women, but they definitely do it to each other, as if every conversation or meeting is a cock fight. I absolutely hate it, so now I hardly talk at all to most people and I intentionally try to listen to people who are actually trying to say something, as opposed to these guys who just suffer from diarrhea of the mouth. Now, I just instantly judge them as intellectually stagnant (to put it politely) and move on.
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@isaacfreeman
@alice
Oops.. I didn't realise this thread was so old, sorry!@3TomatoesShort there's no statute of limitations on socializing
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice
Wonderful post, but I am having the weirdest deja vu. Didn't I reply to this a while back? -
Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice I’m a slight loudmouth in any gender, but femsy protocol gives me the extra option of “shut up and smile”. For me, that’s a win! For the rest, I seem to count as an “equal opportunity offender” (quote: Sam Carter on StarGate, about Jack O’Neill).
Will I pass the mic to women? Hell yeah! Some act surprised!
Several of my superiors are opinionated women. That’s cool!
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@isaacfreeman
@alice
Idk if this is helpful, but as a woman who used to work in software, one phrase I wish some of my male colleagues could have learnt was "how much do you already know about this topic?", to be deployed *before* explaining the entire topic in minute detail. "How much do you need to know about this topic?" is a good one, as well.Tricky though, because it is mainly a context and body language thing. I often mistake the expression and phrasing a woman uses as a signal of where their level of expertise and prior knowledge sits. So it isn't that I automatically assume [woman] is ignorant, but that how I read her tells me with a sense of surety that her level is lower than it actually is.
Asking that question won't even occur to me at that moment, because I will be very confident
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@alice it's because men are arseholes. That's it.
@BackFromTheDud see ¹
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