i am so tired of "ethical concerns aside" being a phrase i see every single time someone tries to defend the use of LLMs.
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@MaddieM4@raphus.social @nicuveo@tech.lgbt
The former. I need to eat. Will you give me food?
I get food for the job I do. And medication. And a roof over my head.
Unless you can give me the same for work I'd do in a manner that satisfies you, the argument doesn't stand.
If anything, you're essentially saying "your health and safety don't matter, because the planet."
Sure, the planet. But I'm not going to martyr myself and my family for it.
Again: give me an alternative, and I'll gladly switch. If you can't, then we're at an impasse, because I still need to eat. -
@MaddieM4@raphus.social @nicuveo@tech.lgbt
The former. I need to eat. Will you give me food?
I get food for the job I do. And medication. And a roof over my head.
Unless you can give me the same for work I'd do in a manner that satisfies you, the argument doesn't stand.
If anything, you're essentially saying "your health and safety don't matter, because the planet."
Sure, the planet. But I'm not going to martyr myself and my family for it.
Again: give me an alternative, and I'll gladly switch. If you can't, then we're at an impasse, because I still need to eat.@phil @nicuveo @MaddieM4 this situation where we’re not allowed to survive unless we kill our life support systems is why we need unions and workers rights and environmental regulations and so on. Nobody can hand you a solution on a silver platter, but almost everybody can do something to make the situation harder to maintain; merely expressing objections still contributes to normalizing valuing preserving life support, obeying in advance is not necessary
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E em0nm4stodon@infosec.exchange shared this topic
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i am so tired of "ethical concerns aside" being a phrase i see every single time someone tries to defend the use of LLMs. fuck that! ethical concerns front and fucking center! it is very revealing that tech is currently in such a state that the quiet part can be said out loud without any pushback.
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@nicuveo Richard Stallman just did this toot opposing breathalyzers in cars: https://mastodon.xyz/@rms/116581752793267275
It's all tied together.
@indigoparadox @nicuveo He says he is pro-breathalyzers in cars: "I think that if someone is convicted of driving under the influence, or something close to that, it is legitimate to attach a sensor-driven kill switch to stop per from driving while inebriated.", but the fact he links to a campaign against such things is pretty confusing.
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@indigoparadox @nicuveo He says he is pro-breathalyzers in cars: "I think that if someone is convicted of driving under the influence, or something close to that, it is legitimate to attach a sensor-driven kill switch to stop per from driving while inebriated.", but the fact he links to a campaign against such things is pretty confusing.
@indigoparadox @nicuveo Seems like he is a quantum state where he is both for and against breathalyzers in cars.
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@MaddieM4@raphus.social @nicuveo@tech.lgbt
The former. I need to eat. Will you give me food?
I get food for the job I do. And medication. And a roof over my head.
Unless you can give me the same for work I'd do in a manner that satisfies you, the argument doesn't stand.
If anything, you're essentially saying "your health and safety don't matter, because the planet."
Sure, the planet. But I'm not going to martyr myself and my family for it.
Again: give me an alternative, and I'll gladly switch. If you can't, then we're at an impasse, because I still need to eat.How did you survive so long without this life-saving miracle technology?
Same way as me?
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@davey_cakes @phil @nicuveo @MaddieM4
Wanted to ask the same thing. Will they answer?
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@davey_cakes@mastodon.ie @nicuveo@tech.lgbt @MaddieM4@raphus.social
Love the hate.
I was unemployed, miserable, separated from my partner, and on the verge of Bad Actions
. Then I got a job that pays okay for where I live, was able to import my partner, pay off a good chunk of my credit, and get my health into a stable state.
Not because of AI, but because I spent my time obsessively learning about information security for a years or so. AI, however, is a pre-requisite for working where I do, because of severe understaffing.
At the same time, I can't afford to lose this job, because I'd soon go back to the previous state of affairs. Turns out, to nobody's surprise, nobody else is willing to pay for my food, medicine, or shelter.
Are you? Or, are you willing to provide free labor for my employer so I can quit using LLMs to get my work done? -
@davey_cakes @phil @nicuveo @MaddieM4
Wanted to ask the same thing. Will they answer?
@JaxVent@lgbtqia.space @davey_cakes@mastodon.ie @nicuveo@tech.lgbt @MaddieM4@raphus.social Just did. Really curious how my position can be argued against.
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@JaxVent@lgbtqia.space @davey_cakes@mastodon.ie @nicuveo@tech.lgbt @MaddieM4@raphus.social Just did. Really curious how my position can be argued against.
@phil @davey_cakes @nicuveo @MaddieM4
You were asked "How did you survive so long without this life-saving miracle technology? "
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@phil @davey_cakes @nicuveo @MaddieM4
You were asked "How did you survive so long without this life-saving miracle technology? "
@JaxVent@lgbtqia.space @davey_cakes@mastodon.ie @nicuveo@tech.lgbt @MaddieM4@raphus.social Barely, is the answer.
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@JaxVent@lgbtqia.space @davey_cakes@mastodon.ie @nicuveo@tech.lgbt @MaddieM4@raphus.social Barely, is the answer.
@davey_cakes@mastodon.ie @JaxVent@lgbtqia.space @nicuveo@tech.lgbt @MaddieM4@raphus.social Or rather, I should be more specific. The question is disingenuous because it assumes that "AI" is the solution to my problems, when it's merely a job tool I'm forced to use to maintain employment.
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@davey_cakes@mastodon.ie @JaxVent@lgbtqia.space @nicuveo@tech.lgbt @MaddieM4@raphus.social Or rather, I should be more specific. The question is disingenuous because it assumes that "AI" is the solution to my problems, when it's merely a job tool I'm forced to use to maintain employment.
@phil @davey_cakes @nicuveo @MaddieM4
I'm sorry you are in that position. No-one should be forced to use it.
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every conversation about the potential usefulness of AI, divorced from ethical concerns, is just this dril tweet
@nicuveo
Or discussions about the benefits of zombie bites. -
@davey_cakes@mastodon.ie @nicuveo@tech.lgbt @MaddieM4@raphus.social
Love the hate.
I was unemployed, miserable, separated from my partner, and on the verge of Bad Actions. Then I got a job that pays okay for where I live, was able to import my partner, pay off a good chunk of my credit, and get my health into a stable state.
Not because of AI, but because I spent my time obsessively learning about information security for a years or so. AI, however, is a pre-requisite for working where I do, because of severe understaffing.
At the same time, I can't afford to lose this job, because I'd soon go back to the previous state of affairs. Turns out, to nobody's surprise, nobody else is willing to pay for my food, medicine, or shelter.
Are you? Or, are you willing to provide free labor for my employer so I can quit using LLMs to get my work done?Just catching up on these messages now. I read some stuff between the lines in your original post, and came in guns blazing, but that's not what this situation needed. I'm sorry for what you're going through. I'm unemployed right now myself. I worry almost every day that my partner will lose her job before I get the surgery that'll let me work again. We're not so different.
I said a lot of "planet health" reasons LLMs suck, but I think the important thing in this context was actually the last one: collective bargaining power. This world *does* have enough resources to go around, but the people at the top with the power to hoard don't have a willingness to share. They are why the rest of us get a musical chairs, you-or-me economy, fighting each other over the scraps.
LLMs exist not to fix the understaffing problem, but to create and enable it. But it's a fair question where that leaves you as an individual actor, and I want to give you an honest and useful answer.
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i am so tired of "ethical concerns aside" being a phrase i see every single time someone tries to defend the use of LLMs. fuck that! ethical concerns front and fucking center! it is very revealing that tech is currently in such a state that the quiet part can be said out loud without any pushback.
@nicuveo Ethical concerns aside, what is the problem with punching AI CEOs in the face?
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Just catching up on these messages now. I read some stuff between the lines in your original post, and came in guns blazing, but that's not what this situation needed. I'm sorry for what you're going through. I'm unemployed right now myself. I worry almost every day that my partner will lose her job before I get the surgery that'll let me work again. We're not so different.
I said a lot of "planet health" reasons LLMs suck, but I think the important thing in this context was actually the last one: collective bargaining power. This world *does* have enough resources to go around, but the people at the top with the power to hoard don't have a willingness to share. They are why the rest of us get a musical chairs, you-or-me economy, fighting each other over the scraps.
LLMs exist not to fix the understaffing problem, but to create and enable it. But it's a fair question where that leaves you as an individual actor, and I want to give you an honest and useful answer.
@phil @davey_cakes @nicuveo This problem doesn't get better by providing the owner class with different unethical free labor. I think you and I both know that. And you might also be able to guess that the "individual actor" part is a clue, or bait, or whatever you like to call it - that one person acting alone can't accomplish much other than getting themself fired, but that's not the only framing available, it's just the only box the owner class wants us to do our thinking inside.
If it's possible for you to quietly coordinate with your coworkers to start a union (so that *together* you can demand an end to understaffing), I recommend it. If you can quietly look for other jobs (especially union ones) while reducing your effort at this one, that's a good idea too. That might mean looking outside your field, like I'll be doing when I pursue work again, even though it means I'll be paid less than I used to. You're in a terrible position, and might need to swim in place for awhile, but I hope you find an exit..
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Just catching up on these messages now. I read some stuff between the lines in your original post, and came in guns blazing, but that's not what this situation needed. I'm sorry for what you're going through. I'm unemployed right now myself. I worry almost every day that my partner will lose her job before I get the surgery that'll let me work again. We're not so different.
I said a lot of "planet health" reasons LLMs suck, but I think the important thing in this context was actually the last one: collective bargaining power. This world *does* have enough resources to go around, but the people at the top with the power to hoard don't have a willingness to share. They are why the rest of us get a musical chairs, you-or-me economy, fighting each other over the scraps.
LLMs exist not to fix the understaffing problem, but to create and enable it. But it's a fair question where that leaves you as an individual actor, and I want to give you an honest and useful answer.
@MaddieM4@raphus.social @davey_cakes@mastodon.ie @nicuveo@tech.lgbt
Yeah I'm 100% on board with what you're saying, but from where I'm standing, I don't think it's the users who should be demonized - if I want to eat, I have to keep working, and this is now a normal tool that nearly everyone's using, at least in my workplace.
I'd rather see more collective pushback against increasing demands vs. compensation.
The work I do would normally (i.e. 2-3 years ago) cost $200-300k minimum to staff, but I'm at $60k and barely functioning because of the cognitive overload.
But I can't quit, because hahahaha health and bills. HA. HA. -
@phil @davey_cakes @nicuveo This problem doesn't get better by providing the owner class with different unethical free labor. I think you and I both know that. And you might also be able to guess that the "individual actor" part is a clue, or bait, or whatever you like to call it - that one person acting alone can't accomplish much other than getting themself fired, but that's not the only framing available, it's just the only box the owner class wants us to do our thinking inside.
If it's possible for you to quietly coordinate with your coworkers to start a union (so that *together* you can demand an end to understaffing), I recommend it. If you can quietly look for other jobs (especially union ones) while reducing your effort at this one, that's a good idea too. That might mean looking outside your field, like I'll be doing when I pursue work again, even though it means I'll be paid less than I used to. You're in a terrible position, and might need to swim in place for awhile, but I hope you find an exit..
@MaddieM4@raphus.social @davey_cakes@mastodon.ie @nicuveo@tech.lgbt Yeah, union won't work because we're all remote. I'm in EU, we have staff in Asia and Africa as well. Not to mention I'm hired via PEO.
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@MaddieM4@raphus.social @davey_cakes@mastodon.ie @nicuveo@tech.lgbt Yeah, union won't work because we're all remote. I'm in EU, we have staff in Asia and Africa as well. Not to mention I'm hired via PEO.
@phil @davey_cakes @nicuveo Remote isn't automatically a dealbreaker for unions. I was actually a union leader at my second job while working remotely.
But I'll also admit, the level of spread you're talking about makes it tricky at best, since you're trying to bind together a crowd of people who don't necessarily come with a lot of cultural affinity to start with, who are at least as scared of unemployment as you are.
Your current job is a very rough place to try to make things happen, and will likely just keep squeezing harder over time. So if I were in your shoes and trying to figure out a plan for the future that didn't feel so day-by-day, draining, and desperate, I'd focus my effort on trying to find someone else to work for. If it takes awhile, that's okay, but you deserve better than being underpaid, overworked, unbenefited, and forced to use the LLMs that are making those problems widespread globally. I really do believe that.
