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  3. We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

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  • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

    We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

    You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

    ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

    We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

    Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

    Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

    Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

    They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

    We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

    I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

    And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

    It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

    I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

    Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

    You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

    Yeah, that's gone now.

    #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

    aimeemaroux@mastodon.socialA This user is from outside of this forum
    aimeemaroux@mastodon.socialA This user is from outside of this forum
    aimeemaroux@mastodon.social
    wrote last edited by
    #20

    @tinker I am neurotypical as far as I know and I have been online since 1999. Never, ever have I thought to myself "search would be better if I could just write the whole question".
    Search has been broken before AI, at least the boolean operators OR and NOT stopped working for me before the LLM hype. I think Google started "guessing what you meant" before that too.
    What I'm trying to say is that neurotypicals want the early web back too. Before it was colonised by corporations.

    doomed_daniel@mastodon.gamedev.placeD 1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

      We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

      You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

      ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

      We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

      Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

      Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

      Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

      They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

      We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

      I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

      And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

      It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

      I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

      Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

      You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

      Yeah, that's gone now.

      #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

      alison@beige.partyA This user is from outside of this forum
      alison@beige.partyA This user is from outside of this forum
      alison@beige.party
      wrote last edited by
      #21

      @tinker Happy memories of boolean search specific searches.

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

        We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

        You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

        ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

        We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

        Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

        Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

        Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

        They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

        We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

        I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

        And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

        It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

        I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

        Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

        You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

        Yeah, that's gone now.

        #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

        sillycoelophysis@hachyderm.ioS This user is from outside of this forum
        sillycoelophysis@hachyderm.ioS This user is from outside of this forum
        sillycoelophysis@hachyderm.io
        wrote last edited by
        #22

        @tinker my kid's other mom asks chat gpt mental health questions apparently frequently, sometimes about our child. On the fediverse and in my lefty news podcasts I hear that people hate AI, but most people I know seem to be leaning on it for a lot. It's pretty concerning.

        iamdannyboling@mstdn.socialI 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

          We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

          You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

          ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

          We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

          Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

          Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

          Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

          They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

          We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

          I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

          And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

          It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

          I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

          Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

          You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

          Yeah, that's gone now.

          #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

          L This user is from outside of this forum
          L This user is from outside of this forum
          loteq@infosec.exchange
          wrote last edited by
          #23

          @tinker a coworker recently complained that I had used "prune" vs "filter" and that prune was much more CPU intensive. This same bloke uses like 10 constantly-running agents to basically do his job. I don't think you get to use LLMs and also complain about big O notation. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

          1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • aimeemaroux@mastodon.socialA aimeemaroux@mastodon.social

            @tinker I am neurotypical as far as I know and I have been online since 1999. Never, ever have I thought to myself "search would be better if I could just write the whole question".
            Search has been broken before AI, at least the boolean operators OR and NOT stopped working for me before the LLM hype. I think Google started "guessing what you meant" before that too.
            What I'm trying to say is that neurotypicals want the early web back too. Before it was colonised by corporations.

            doomed_daniel@mastodon.gamedev.placeD This user is from outside of this forum
            doomed_daniel@mastodon.gamedev.placeD This user is from outside of this forum
            doomed_daniel@mastodon.gamedev.place
            wrote last edited by
            #24

            @AimeeMaroux @tinker
            probably undiagnosed 😉

            just kidding - the OP was just a generalization, of course there are neurotypicals who dislike bullshit and value preciseness, and there certainly are neurodivergent people who love LLMs (some people describe them to feel like gambling, i.e. dopamine hits when it seems to work, so it keeps you using it, which can be a trap especially for folks with ADHD - and one reason I avoid that crap like the plague)

            aimeemaroux@mastodon.socialA 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

              We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

              You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

              ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

              We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

              Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

              Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

              Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

              They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

              We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

              I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

              And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

              It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

              I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

              Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

              You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

              Yeah, that's gone now.

              #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

              datum@zeroes.caD This user is from outside of this forum
              datum@zeroes.caD This user is from outside of this forum
              datum@zeroes.ca
              wrote last edited by
              #25

              @tinker

              in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

              This is such a painful phenomenon!

              1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • joshsusser@autistics.lifeJ joshsusser@autistics.life

                @tinker In a past life I worked at an "AI search" company, and the example search they always used to promote natural language searching was "Who shot Dick Cheney in the face?" The correct answer is "nobody", but search results always return hits for when Cheney shot his buddy Harry Whittington in the face while quail hunting. That's a pretty hard thing to describe with keywords and booleans unless you add some semantic relationships into the queries, and that's not a simple thing to do. Sometimes natural language is the most precise way of expressing a query, but the technology for understanding and processing that query still leaves a lot to be desired, even in cases where you'd think it should work better than keyword or structured queries.

                I think you're probably right about there being a double-empathy like issue with how NTs and NDs use information tools. I think all we ND folk have personal experience with that. The AI search we have now is not what we thought we were building back then. Though I can't say it's not what the founders and investors envisioned - you never know their secret exit plans. But we were trying to get better search results, not inaccurate results that feel like they should be correct.

                datum@zeroes.caD This user is from outside of this forum
                datum@zeroes.caD This user is from outside of this forum
                datum@zeroes.ca
                wrote last edited by
                #26

                @joshsusser I think that's an easy problem to solve with keywords and booleans though? "shot Dick Cheney" as a quoted string should not return any results for "Dick Cheney shot" and no competent journalist is writing "Shot: DIck Cheney, in the face, says hospitalized hunter"

                joshsusser@autistics.lifeJ 1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                  We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                  You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                  ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                  We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                  Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                  Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                  Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                  They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                  We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                  I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                  And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                  It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                  I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                  Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                  You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                  Yeah, that's gone now.

                  #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                  h2onolan@infosec.exchangeH This user is from outside of this forum
                  h2onolan@infosec.exchangeH This user is from outside of this forum
                  h2onolan@infosec.exchange
                  wrote last edited by
                  #27

                  @tinker i get unreasonably upset when i try to use a search the way it was intended and get in response: “fuck you here is what we decided you should have searched for and also here are some slops”

                  robinsyl@meow.socialR 1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • doomed_daniel@mastodon.gamedev.placeD doomed_daniel@mastodon.gamedev.place

                    @AimeeMaroux @tinker
                    probably undiagnosed 😉

                    just kidding - the OP was just a generalization, of course there are neurotypicals who dislike bullshit and value preciseness, and there certainly are neurodivergent people who love LLMs (some people describe them to feel like gambling, i.e. dopamine hits when it seems to work, so it keeps you using it, which can be a trap especially for folks with ADHD - and one reason I avoid that crap like the plague)

                    aimeemaroux@mastodon.socialA This user is from outside of this forum
                    aimeemaroux@mastodon.socialA This user is from outside of this forum
                    aimeemaroux@mastodon.social
                    wrote last edited by
                    #28

                    @Doomed_Daniel @tinker Who knows 😉

                    I have a STEM degree and and that might be why I appreciate precise search. The 2000s internet also felt very alive with all its small personal websites.

                    I totally get the LLM gambling thing. "Will it do it right this time?" can be fun entertainment but also a time and money sink (if you pay for the LLM) and also a high environmental cost in any case 😕

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • krypt3ia@infosec.exchangeK krypt3ia@infosec.exchange

                      @tinker Enshittification

                      amorpheus@kind.socialA This user is from outside of this forum
                      amorpheus@kind.socialA This user is from outside of this forum
                      amorpheus@kind.social
                      wrote last edited by
                      #29

                      @krypt3ia @tinker https://youtu.be/T4Upf_B9RLQ?si=sidmkvIov8Q9lpu8

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                        We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                        You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                        ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                        We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                        Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                        Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                        Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                        They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                        We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                        I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                        And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                        It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                        I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                        Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                        You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                        Yeah, that's gone now.

                        #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                        the_turtle@mastodon.sdf.orgT This user is from outside of this forum
                        the_turtle@mastodon.sdf.orgT This user is from outside of this forum
                        the_turtle@mastodon.sdf.org
                        wrote last edited by
                        #30

                        @tinker

                        SHOWING RESULTS FOR "precise."

                        DID YOU MEAN "pricks?"

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • datum@zeroes.caD datum@zeroes.ca

                          @joshsusser I think that's an easy problem to solve with keywords and booleans though? "shot Dick Cheney" as a quoted string should not return any results for "Dick Cheney shot" and no competent journalist is writing "Shot: DIck Cheney, in the face, says hospitalized hunter"

                          joshsusser@autistics.lifeJ This user is from outside of this forum
                          joshsusser@autistics.lifeJ This user is from outside of this forum
                          joshsusser@autistics.life
                          wrote last edited by
                          #31

                          @datum I wish I had the energy for this kind of deep technical convo today, but I don't. But I'll just say it's more complicated than that in practice, as the internet is multilingual and a lot of people write poorly. The enhancement you mention is basically what I meant when I said you had to add some semantics to the keyword query. That might seem simple at first, but the complexity compounds. I don't think natural language is solving this problem well now, so maybe there will be a better keyword-based solution sometime. There's certainly room for improvement.

                          datum@zeroes.caD 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • krypt3ia@infosec.exchangeK krypt3ia@infosec.exchange

                            @tinker Enshittification

                            npars01@mstdn.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                            npars01@mstdn.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                            npars01@mstdn.social
                            wrote last edited by
                            #32

                            @krypt3ia @tinker

                            Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

                            favicon

                            (www.bloomberg.com)

                            The enshittification of google search has fossil fuel funding.
                            https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-06/saudis-plan-100-billion-ai-powerhouse-to-rival-uae-s-tech-hub

                            Each crappy search result triggers more attempts to find what you need with more prompts & more refined search parameters

                            Each query attempt is being routed to behemoths like this one
                            https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/kevin-o-learys-9-gw-utah-data-center-campus-approved

                            Link Preview Image
                            Utah Data Center - Wikipedia

                            favicon

                            (en.wikipedia.org)

                            That's by design. To waste energy, with a side of state surveillance & chokepoint capitalism

                            Efficient search conserves energy

                            1/

                            npars01@mstdn.socialN A 2 Replies Last reply
                            0
                            • npars01@mstdn.socialN npars01@mstdn.social

                              @krypt3ia @tinker

                              Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

                              favicon

                              (www.bloomberg.com)

                              The enshittification of google search has fossil fuel funding.
                              https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-06/saudis-plan-100-billion-ai-powerhouse-to-rival-uae-s-tech-hub

                              Each crappy search result triggers more attempts to find what you need with more prompts & more refined search parameters

                              Each query attempt is being routed to behemoths like this one
                              https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/kevin-o-learys-9-gw-utah-data-center-campus-approved

                              Link Preview Image
                              Utah Data Center - Wikipedia

                              favicon

                              (en.wikipedia.org)

                              That's by design. To waste energy, with a side of state surveillance & chokepoint capitalism

                              Efficient search conserves energy

                              1/

                              npars01@mstdn.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                              npars01@mstdn.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                              npars01@mstdn.social
                              wrote last edited by
                              #33

                              2/

                              We continue to underestimate how far the fossil fuel industry will go to keep its power, control, & wealth.

                              As the globe switches away from fossil fuels, the industry seeks ways to waste it with forced user adoption & hype.

                              AI is just the latest incarnation of toxic products from the fossil fuel industry, gilded with oil oligarchs' fake charities as wolves in sheep's clothing.

                              nytimes.com

                              favicon

                              (www.nytimes.com)

                              Link Preview Image
                              Five Billionaires Pledged $1 Billion To Boost Economic Mobility Using AI

                              Five of America’s top philanthropists are teaming up for a new venture aimed at helping low-income Americans rise from poverty. An AI giant has signed on to help.

                              favicon

                              Forbes (www.forbes.com)

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_in_sheep%27s_clothing

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                                We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                                You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                                ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                                We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                                Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                                Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                                Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                                They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                                We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                                I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                                And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                                It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                                I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                                Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                                You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                                Yeah, that's gone now.

                                #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                                greatbigtable@mastodon.socialG This user is from outside of this forum
                                greatbigtable@mastodon.socialG This user is from outside of this forum
                                greatbigtable@mastodon.social
                                wrote last edited by
                                #34

                                @tinker I was so angry when many search engines stopped processing the AND, OR, NOT, and NEAR keywords.

                                While, you can still refine searches with advanced search syntax of each search engine, it is just not the same.

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                                • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                                  We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                                  You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                                  ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                                  We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                                  Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                                  Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                                  Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                                  They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                                  We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                                  I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                                  And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                                  It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                                  I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                                  Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                                  You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                                  Yeah, that's gone now.

                                  #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                                  ukeleleeric@mstdn.socialU This user is from outside of this forum
                                  ukeleleeric@mstdn.socialU This user is from outside of this forum
                                  ukeleleeric@mstdn.social
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #35

                                  @tinker Not sure that it's as much a neuro typical/neuro divergent divide as you state. I am, as far as I can tell, fairly neuro typical. I also hate the enshittified search engines and AI. I want to search for what I want, not what a statistical word jumbler predicts is most likely to coincide with the words I typed in.

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                                  • joshsusser@autistics.lifeJ joshsusser@autistics.life

                                    @datum I wish I had the energy for this kind of deep technical convo today, but I don't. But I'll just say it's more complicated than that in practice, as the internet is multilingual and a lot of people write poorly. The enhancement you mention is basically what I meant when I said you had to add some semantics to the keyword query. That might seem simple at first, but the complexity compounds. I don't think natural language is solving this problem well now, so maybe there will be a better keyword-based solution sometime. There's certainly room for improvement.

                                    datum@zeroes.caD This user is from outside of this forum
                                    datum@zeroes.caD This user is from outside of this forum
                                    datum@zeroes.ca
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #36

                                    @joshsusser Fair enough, guard your spoons! Thank you for raising the notion.

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                                    • h2onolan@infosec.exchangeH h2onolan@infosec.exchange

                                      @tinker i get unreasonably upset when i try to use a search the way it was intended and get in response: “fuck you here is what we decided you should have searched for and also here are some slops”

                                      robinsyl@meow.socialR This user is from outside of this forum
                                      robinsyl@meow.socialR This user is from outside of this forum
                                      robinsyl@meow.social
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #37

                                      @h2onolan @tinker youtube

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                                      • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                                        We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                                        You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                                        ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                                        We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                                        Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                                        Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                                        Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                                        They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                                        We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                                        I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                                        And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                                        It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                                        I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                                        Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                                        You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                                        Yeah, that's gone now.

                                        #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                                        sollat@masto.aiS This user is from outside of this forum
                                        sollat@masto.aiS This user is from outside of this forum
                                        sollat@masto.ai
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #38

                                        @tinker
                                        I don’t know. Are sociopaths neurotypical?

                                        P 1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                                          We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                                          You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                                          ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                                          We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                                          Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                                          Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                                          Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                                          They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                                          We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                                          I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                                          And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                                          It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                                          I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                                          Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                                          You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                                          Yeah, that's gone now.

                                          #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                                          morrick@appdot.netM This user is from outside of this forum
                                          morrick@appdot.netM This user is from outside of this forum
                                          morrick@appdot.net
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #39

                                          @tinker Early Internet made by neurodivergent people and today’s Internet in the hands of the neurotypical? I’m not so sure. It’s enshittification made by people who want to extract as much as possible from everyone while returning a much worse experience than before. It’s this ‘AI’ craze inflated by an industry that desperately seeks relevance to try making millions out of next-to nothing.

                                          Early Internet’s model was altruism. Today, selfishness.

                                          I’m not neurodivergent and I HATE AI search.

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