When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful!
-
@tim @jwildeboer Yes, especially to the cooling as storage! Cold storage warehouses could freeze up huge ice blocks with excess and then use those during peak demand time, too.
@KarlHeinzHasliP @tim @jwildeboer Not quite so simple alas but a lot of cold storage plant in some places does operate based on spot pricing. The challenge is getting the energy back out of the ice fast enough and efficiently. Storage is great - a 1m cube of ice is something crazy like 100kWh of cooling power.
-
@OneInterestingFact @jwildeboer @openrisk
Raw material: same issue like any other raw material humans dig from earth. Can be handled.Lithium: there are other chemical partners, Natrium gets better, and for stationary use it is allready good to go.
Seasonal storage: don't forget wind and solar go together. When we have low solar harvest, we tend to have more wind. Seasonal storage is not yet solved, but there are quite some promising approaches.
Flow batteries don't deliver yet.
@Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk
We can extract minerals without destroying environments and exploiting people. We should. But currently we don't.
Natrium? I'm guessing that's what I know as sodium? Yes, there are promising developments there.
I'm not well informed on the chemistry - lithium requires cobalt in the anode which is also problematic.The issue as I see it is scaling storage to run industrial plant to support the global population
-
@jwildeboer @ammdias @eoinho V2G I am not sure about. The prices we are seeing at this point in the UK make V2G about the same price as just buying another 32kWh battery pack. That battery doesn't go to work, or leave you thinking "I can't put the laundry on as the battery is going shopping in a bit"
There's always a battle between "we can use expensive object better with clever devices" and "make expensive object cheap".
The latter IMHO is winning on batteries, like it did on SSDs
@etchedpixels I've seen some really good V2G solutions for big charging stations for delivery vehicles/trucks. They are mostly parked between 21:00-6:00 and they mostly arrive with still 30-60% charged. So topping them up only takes a few hours. You can feed 10-20% per vehicle into the grid in the hours before midnight and gradually move to charging between 2:00-6:00. Do that with 50-100 vehicles and it starts making a lot of sense. @ammdias @eoinho
-
@valhalla The current incentive system (at least here in the EU) is completely wrong, though. In times of excess electricity from renewables, you are forced to shut wind/solar down and the electricity companies then have to pay you for NOT generating electricity. This disincentivizes from building storage capacities that would allow for better capture and use of renewable electricity. Things are changing, though.
@jwildeboer @valhalla Interesting. The UK actually favours adding battery storage because you can profit from arbitrage on an industrial scale (and we've had people doing that with pumped storage even before batteries were a meaningful thing). The more we get negative prices the more the "store it and sell it at peak" people make.
Where it all comes undone here is a lot of our wind generation is one end, and industry the other (due to a failure of energy pricing models)
-
@etchedpixels I've seen some really good V2G solutions for big charging stations for delivery vehicles/trucks. They are mostly parked between 21:00-6:00 and they mostly arrive with still 30-60% charged. So topping them up only takes a few hours. You can feed 10-20% per vehicle into the grid in the hours before midnight and gradually move to charging between 2:00-6:00. Do that with 50-100 vehicles and it starts making a lot of sense. @ammdias @eoinho
@jwildeboer @ammdias @eoinho Ok that makes a lot more sense. For home it's looking marginal at best.
-
@jwildeboer @ammdias @eoinho Ok that makes a lot more sense. For home it's looking marginal at best.
@etchedpixels The company behind this, The Mobility House in Munich, is now also offering free charging at home with a wallbox when they are allowed to V2G your car with their system.
"if an electric car is connected and available for bidirectional charging for an average of 14 hours per day, the charging costs for a driving distance of 10,000 kilometres can practically be reduced to zero."
https://www.electrive.com/2026/04/15/the-mobility-house-to-offer-free-electricity-for-v2g-customers/ -
@Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk
We can extract minerals without destroying environments and exploiting people. We should. But currently we don't.
Natrium? I'm guessing that's what I know as sodium? Yes, there are promising developments there.
I'm not well informed on the chemistry - lithium requires cobalt in the anode which is also problematic.The issue as I see it is scaling storage to run industrial plant to support the global population
@OneInterestingFact @jwildeboer @openrisk yes, sorry, it is sodium in english language.
Cobalt free cell cemistry is available.
Again: responsible mining is an issue. We always can do better. The Lithium mining is nevertheless WAY less damaging for nature as oil business is and has been.
Industry scale batteries are done regulary, BMW has a factory with windturbines with battery backup. California has Megawatts capacity to stabilize the network. There are loads of examples.
-
@etchedpixels I've seen some really good V2G solutions for big charging stations for delivery vehicles/trucks. They are mostly parked between 21:00-6:00 and they mostly arrive with still 30-60% charged. So topping them up only takes a few hours. You can feed 10-20% per vehicle into the grid in the hours before midnight and gradually move to charging between 2:00-6:00. Do that with 50-100 vehicles and it starts making a lot of sense. @ammdias @eoinho
@jwildeboer @etchedpixels @ammdias @eoinho yes but do those vehicle owners get paid for the additional wear and tear of their batteries?
- If not they don't!
- Even if it's just "freely charged full at the planned departure time"…
- If not they don't!
-
@jwildeboer @etchedpixels @ammdias @eoinho yes but do those vehicle owners get paid for the additional wear and tear of their batteries?
- If not they don't!
- Even if it's just "freely charged full at the planned departure time"…
@kkarhan Current research indicates that modern batteries in vehicles last far longer than the vehicle itself, so the wear and tear aspect is severely overrated, in my opinion. Just another "yes but" to stifle progress
See https://www.geotab.com/press-release/ev-battery-health-degradation-fast-charging-study/ @etchedpixels @ammdias @eoinho - If not they don't!
-
@kkarhan Current research indicates that modern batteries in vehicles last far longer than the vehicle itself, so the wear and tear aspect is severely overrated, in my opinion. Just another "yes but" to stifle progress
See https://www.geotab.com/press-release/ev-battery-health-degradation-fast-charging-study/ @etchedpixels @ammdias @eoinho@jwildeboer @etchedpixels @ammdias @eoinho yes and no.
All batteries degrade over useage and time, depending on cycles & discharge depth. -
@jwildeboer @etchedpixels @ammdias @eoinho yes and no.
All batteries degrade over useage and time, depending on cycles & discharge depth.@kkarhan Whch is exactly what the research I linked to shows. Batteries degrade, but the rate of decay is lower than most expected. Fast charging raises the rate of decay, but not as severe as many have feared. A typical EV battery will outlast the car it was built into, leading to the secondary market you mentioned. @etchedpixels @ammdias @eoinho
-
@kkarhan Whch is exactly what the research I linked to shows. Batteries degrade, but the rate of decay is lower than most expected. Fast charging raises the rate of decay, but not as severe as many have feared. A typical EV battery will outlast the car it was built into, leading to the secondary market you mentioned. @etchedpixels @ammdias @eoinho
@jwildeboer @kkarhan @etchedpixels @eoinho
Also, for most people -- who only commute daily to work --, fast charging is mostly unnecessary. The car could be slow charging when parked at work (or in the parking lot where it awaits the return of its owner) **and** at night, at home.
-
When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer of course in reality this does happen, but it's also a matter of where your generation and storage are. You can't absorb excess supply from Scottish wind farms with EVs in London, for example.
Grids are definitely getting smarter, but maintaining grid stability with additional renewables and increased electrification is neither trivially easy nor cheap.
-
@jwildeboer Maybe use the excess to crack water into hydrogen for fuel cell vehicles.
@timjclevenger Hydrogen powered vehicles are barely a thing, but we need to generate it anyway to produce essential stuff like GHG-free steel and fertilizer. It makes more sense to do that than to pursue buy-low-sell-high battery storage schemes. #hydrogen
@jwildeboer -
@OneInterestingFact @jwildeboer @openrisk yes, sorry, it is sodium in english language.
Cobalt free cell cemistry is available.
Again: responsible mining is an issue. We always can do better. The Lithium mining is nevertheless WAY less damaging for nature as oil business is and has been.
Industry scale batteries are done regulary, BMW has a factory with windturbines with battery backup. California has Megawatts capacity to stabilize the network. There are loads of examples.
@Reinald @OneInterestingFact @jwildeboer @openrisk my understanding about grid scale batteries was that they were only good for the short term
As in: grid balancing, best case scenario day/night load shifting?
-
@Reinald @OneInterestingFact @jwildeboer @openrisk my understanding about grid scale batteries was that they were only good for the short term
As in: grid balancing, best case scenario day/night load shifting?
@GuillaumeRossolini @Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk
Mine too - storing PWh to use in 6 months time is way beyond the scale of any tech I'm aware of. -
@GuillaumeRossolini @Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk
Mine too - storing PWh to use in 6 months time is way beyond the scale of any tech I'm aware of.@OneInterestingFact @Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk apparently we’re capable of storing heat for seasonal cycles, though I’m skeptical of the numbers presented in this article
Reinald Kirchner (@Reinald@nrw.social)
@passwordsarehard4@mastodon.social @jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.net @openrisk@mastodon.social local heat storage seems to be more feasible than global water pumping. https://www.review-energy.com/almacenamiento/finland-builds-the-world-s-largest-seasonal-thermal-energy-storage-facility There are other concepts with temperatures up to several 100 (500? 600?) °C as well heating up sand oder ceramic rubble.
NRW.social (nrw.social)
-
@simo5 France demands solar panels to cover any parking site with more than 80 parking spaces. EPBD (Energy Performance of Buildings Directive) demands solar design as part of the permit process for new building. Things are changing. https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-efficiency/energy-performance-buildings/energy-performance-buildings-directive/solar-energy-buildings_en
@jwildeboer they aren’t rushing to comply, I’m telling you
-
When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
There's only one reason to promote oil and curb the renewable development - to make every last dollar possible from petroleum products. Given that premise, nothing should be surprising.
-
@OneInterestingFact @Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk apparently we’re capable of storing heat for seasonal cycles, though I’m skeptical of the numbers presented in this article
Reinald Kirchner (@Reinald@nrw.social)
@passwordsarehard4@mastodon.social @jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.net @openrisk@mastodon.social local heat storage seems to be more feasible than global water pumping. https://www.review-energy.com/almacenamiento/finland-builds-the-world-s-largest-seasonal-thermal-energy-storage-facility There are other concepts with temperatures up to several 100 (500? 600?) °C as well heating up sand oder ceramic rubble.
NRW.social (nrw.social)
@GuillaumeRossolini @OneInterestingFact @jwildeboer @openrisk yes, that is current state of technology. Seasonal storage is not yet solved. Heat solutions start working, but more as one-off prototypes. No proven turnkey solutions yet.
Flow batteries have unsolved issues with charge loss - not ready yet. For the time being, storage via heat seems to be a good bet.
