Sigh.
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But I'm REALLY HAPPY right now because this kinda-sorta validates the key premise of the SF novel I just handed in last month (which involves serial reincarnation via destructive brain-slicing-and-imaging then imprinting onto an immature cortex, and then explores its disastrous societal failure modes).
... And it also hints that artificial consciousness might, eventually, be possible, if only via the hard path of doing it the same way we do it, only in simulation in silico.
/6 (ends)
@cstross I’d have to read the paper, but fundamentally, that doesn’t sound very different to what you’d find in Rumelhart & McClelland (now celebrating its 40th birthday!)
If they now have a complete model, it can be tested to see where it’s reducible to a simpler but logically identical connectome, and probably more interestingly, where that is not possible; that may point to a minimum level of complexity to encode certain general functions. -
@cstross mine is semi-hard far-future where a society, in a fit of collective stupidity, spent money until they could turn a comprehensive non-destructive scan of a legend who was late in her life, who has been dead *centuries*, into a one-off thinkybox.
And now it's in a two-layer Faraday cage with four redundant guillotine power cuts, a long list of 'never say' items, you don't turn it on for more than an hour. Worse, they modified by request, and now have no idea how ANY of the system works.
@cstross worse, this is a system that has now been running for literal centuries. And they keep sticking to the 'brain in a box' story. So answering the question "what year is it" instantly sends them into an extreme psychological tailspin with suicidal depression and severe psychosis. They have to pull redundant storage before turning it on, because multiple times people have said the wrong thing and caused it to *self-delete*. And it's even worse when they know the redundant storage is gone.
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@Antiqueight Naah, the ice crystals forming in your synapses would mush them into un-digitizable soup.
@cstross @Antiqueight one please
️ -
But I'm REALLY HAPPY right now because this kinda-sorta validates the key premise of the SF novel I just handed in last month (which involves serial reincarnation via destructive brain-slicing-and-imaging then imprinting onto an immature cortex, and then explores its disastrous societal failure modes).
... And it also hints that artificial consciousness might, eventually, be possible, if only via the hard path of doing it the same way we do it, only in simulation in silico.
/6 (ends)
@cstross
Welp. More evidence for the "we don't know when to stop" hypothesis. It may take a while but I find it very hard to imagine a good outcome from that research path for society. It even scares me when people say stuff like this is "cool" or "interesting". To me, it's like, yes of course it is theoretically possible therefore we should not be trying to do it!Profoundly depressing, in all honesty. I cannot get excited about this stuff.
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@cstross
Welp. More evidence for the "we don't know when to stop" hypothesis. It may take a while but I find it very hard to imagine a good outcome from that research path for society. It even scares me when people say stuff like this is "cool" or "interesting". To me, it's like, yes of course it is theoretically possible therefore we should not be trying to do it!Profoundly depressing, in all honesty. I cannot get excited about this stuff.
@cstross
In some ways researching this kind of thing represents a really bad inclination we have as a species. We are so clever we forget to be human. We forget to treat each other as living beings, because we get too caught up in the details. We invent super clever ways of surveilling each other and forget to be nice and caring to our neighbours. We research how our brains work so we can build robot humans at some future point, rather than enjoying the magic of being alive. -
@cstross
In some ways researching this kind of thing represents a really bad inclination we have as a species. We are so clever we forget to be human. We forget to treat each other as living beings, because we get too caught up in the details. We invent super clever ways of surveilling each other and forget to be nice and caring to our neighbours. We research how our brains work so we can build robot humans at some future point, rather than enjoying the magic of being alive.@cstross
The two ways of thinking are not compatible for me. I know not everyone thinks that way, but I just can't combine the two mindsets and the further we move down these paths the bigger the divide seems. -
@cstross
The two ways of thinking are not compatible for me. I know not everyone thinks that way, but I just can't combine the two mindsets and the further we move down these paths the bigger the divide seems.@cstross
But I suppose I'm talking about myself really. I don't mean that a scientist researching this stuff can't be kind. I mean that to me, going down the rabbit hole of the technical details of how a creature's mind works is not compatible with treating the creature as a being.I rescue flies if they get stuck in water. I hate this research.
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Sigh.
So it turns out we've mapped the neural connectome of Drosophila *and simulated it in silico*.
Pop-sci explainer here:
Whole Brain Emulation Achieved: Scientists Run a Fruit Fly Brain in Simulation | RathBiotaClan
Scientists ran a real fruit fly brain in simulation using the FlyWire connectome, achieving the first working whole brain emulation.
RathBiotaClan (www.rathbiotaclan.com)
Key quote: "The step from a complete connectome to a working computational brain model is not trivial." And there's an even more important finding in this screenshot (alt text via OCR):
"The wiring is the computation".
/1
@cstross "The wiring is the computation" has been my working assumption for 30 years now.
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Sigh.
So it turns out we've mapped the neural connectome of Drosophila *and simulated it in silico*.
Pop-sci explainer here:
Whole Brain Emulation Achieved: Scientists Run a Fruit Fly Brain in Simulation | RathBiotaClan
Scientists ran a real fruit fly brain in simulation using the FlyWire connectome, achieving the first working whole brain emulation.
RathBiotaClan (www.rathbiotaclan.com)
Key quote: "The step from a complete connectome to a working computational brain model is not trivial." And there's an even more important finding in this screenshot (alt text via OCR):
"The wiring is the computation".
/1
@cstross Reading this I suddenly remembered qntm's https://qntm.org/mmacevedo story.
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Sigh.
So it turns out we've mapped the neural connectome of Drosophila *and simulated it in silico*.
Pop-sci explainer here:
Whole Brain Emulation Achieved: Scientists Run a Fruit Fly Brain in Simulation | RathBiotaClan
Scientists ran a real fruit fly brain in simulation using the FlyWire connectome, achieving the first working whole brain emulation.
RathBiotaClan (www.rathbiotaclan.com)
Key quote: "The step from a complete connectome to a working computational brain model is not trivial." And there's an even more important finding in this screenshot (alt text via OCR):
"The wiring is the computation".
/1
@cstross they're putting bugs in computers now!
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@Antiqueight Naah, the ice crystals forming in your synapses would mush them into un-digitizable soup.
@cstross You can tell I've kept up with the technology - they haven't resolved that yet??!?
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But I'm REALLY HAPPY right now because this kinda-sorta validates the key premise of the SF novel I just handed in last month (which involves serial reincarnation via destructive brain-slicing-and-imaging then imprinting onto an immature cortex, and then explores its disastrous societal failure modes).
... And it also hints that artificial consciousness might, eventually, be possible, if only via the hard path of doing it the same way we do it, only in simulation in silico.
/6 (ends)
@cstross Dancing rodents for your manuscript.
But even apart from that, this would have been impossible not that long ago. Truly incredible
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@cstross "the wiring is the computer" is not too surprising. Years ago playing w/ algorithms for FPGA, needed to invent a bit-string perfect hash table. One way of doing a perfect hash function/table involves a matrix and offset, H = Mx + v, but our math needed to be boolean (AND, XOR), a "1" coefficient was a wire, and if we wanted a one-cycle hash index, then we needed no more 1's in a row than maximum inputs to an FPGA XOR. So, a sparse boolean matrix. The wiring was the computation..
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... The next step on from Drosophila, the mouse brain, is 560 times larger—never mind a vastly more complex human brain. And to get the murine connectome we'll have to chop up *a lot* of brains: a human upload won't pass any kind of medical ethics review at this point!
But near-term, it's expected to yield "fundamentally new architectural principles for AI systems that are more sample-efficient, more robust, and more capable of behavioral generalization than current approaches"
/5
RE: https://wandering.shop/@cstross/116210321731463885
BTW, we can already preserve a large-mammal-scale connectome after death: https://www.brainpreservation.org/tech-prize/
Related, if you haven't seen AMC's Pantheon, you might want to take a look. It involves uploaded human intelligence via destructive brain scan.
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Sigh.
So it turns out we've mapped the neural connectome of Drosophila *and simulated it in silico*.
Pop-sci explainer here:
Whole Brain Emulation Achieved: Scientists Run a Fruit Fly Brain in Simulation | RathBiotaClan
Scientists ran a real fruit fly brain in simulation using the FlyWire connectome, achieving the first working whole brain emulation.
RathBiotaClan (www.rathbiotaclan.com)
Key quote: "The step from a complete connectome to a working computational brain model is not trivial." And there's an even more important finding in this screenshot (alt text via OCR):
"The wiring is the computation".
/1
@cstross Interesting; I've suspected that the first AGI would have to be modeled after our own brain and would have to go through the same growing and learning and sensory feedback loops we do, and at probably the same rate we do. Any benefit of an AGI, over a human, would be inherent to the medium (cloning, save/restore) and not innately super intelligence. It would also come with its own challenges and limitations (no human has ever lived 200 years, would recall become a limiting factor?).
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Sigh.
So it turns out we've mapped the neural connectome of Drosophila *and simulated it in silico*.
Pop-sci explainer here:
Whole Brain Emulation Achieved: Scientists Run a Fruit Fly Brain in Simulation | RathBiotaClan
Scientists ran a real fruit fly brain in simulation using the FlyWire connectome, achieving the first working whole brain emulation.
RathBiotaClan (www.rathbiotaclan.com)
Key quote: "The step from a complete connectome to a working computational brain model is not trivial." And there's an even more important finding in this screenshot (alt text via OCR):
"The wiring is the computation".
/1
that's... interesting.
but can someone make an asic of this brain and get it to run doom
on debian linux
with an xfce desktop environment? -
Sigh.
So it turns out we've mapped the neural connectome of Drosophila *and simulated it in silico*.
Pop-sci explainer here:
Whole Brain Emulation Achieved: Scientists Run a Fruit Fly Brain in Simulation | RathBiotaClan
Scientists ran a real fruit fly brain in simulation using the FlyWire connectome, achieving the first working whole brain emulation.
RathBiotaClan (www.rathbiotaclan.com)
Key quote: "The step from a complete connectome to a working computational brain model is not trivial." And there's an even more important finding in this screenshot (alt text via OCR):
"The wiring is the computation".
/1
@cstross Considering I'm re-reading Iain M. Banks right now, this is quite relevant, though I'm struggling to remember what book it was that had the "if you simulate perfectly every neurone" argument for sentience of drones.
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it's a base 4 system, since you can have adenine-thymine, thymine-adenine, cytosine-guanine and guanine-cytosine pairs, so automatically you're storing far more information within a single place value compared to binary.
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But I'm REALLY HAPPY right now because this kinda-sorta validates the key premise of the SF novel I just handed in last month (which involves serial reincarnation via destructive brain-slicing-and-imaging then imprinting onto an immature cortex, and then explores its disastrous societal failure modes).
... And it also hints that artificial consciousness might, eventually, be possible, if only via the hard path of doing it the same way we do it, only in simulation in silico.
/6 (ends)
Kind of the backstory for @gregeganSF's "Permutation City" scaled down a few dozen orders of magnitude.
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@mwl Also very cool, the Indian sci/tech news website that ran that feature! (From the writing style I initially thought it might be AI slop, but no: Indian English is just a bit different.)
@cstross Oh, so that wasn't just me.
Between that and the crawler at the top I had to give up trying to read it. A shame, it seemed interesting.
