Edit: better not to suggest anything specific & give free education on tactics, but I think there's a germ of something here.
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i think "here's how to leave" would be better. the run people who run ICE will do enough work fucking it up for their employeees.
@burnitdown
I don't think some of these folks can leave.If they have to pay back a bonus they already spent in full (even though they never received the full amount themselves due to taxes), how do they leave? What's the way out of that?
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Maybe it should be less specific than listing specific means of obstruction, but why not try to plant the idea that they should fuck with the people who have caught them in a debt trap forcing them to work a truly miserable job?
@artemis nevermind trying to "fight from the inside", cause that doesn't work, and ICE will eat itself. it has to. once more people find out how being an employee of ICE works, not many people will want to work for them.
the thing that will work is agitation. make them angry. demoralise them. make them want to fight each other, and let that be a reason they want to leave.
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Edit: better not to suggest anything specific & give free education on tactics, but I think there's a germ of something here.
Edit2: this is a thread about possible approaches, not me saying "we should do exactly this".
Idea for a poster to put up in areas with large ICE operations:
"Are you an ICE agent?
Do you have no way out?
Here are 5 easy ways to fuck things up from the inside:"I dunno. Is that anything?
@artemis the best thing about it is it'll increase their paranoia. They'll all be wondering "is Bob just kinda incompetent and lazy, or is he a saboteur??? What about Joe?"
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i don't think it's worth finding out if some of the poisonous snakes coming at your door are "on your side". you close the door.
@burnitdown
Like I said, not about getting them on our side. Just about using them. -
@burnitdown
I don't think some of these folks can leave.If they have to pay back a bonus they already spent in full (even though they never received the full amount themselves due to taxes), how do they leave? What's the way out of that?
@artemis make them angry about it. let them figure it out. they wanted to join, they can deal with the consequences of trying to get out. that's not our problem. it's the same with regular cops.
let's not let these fuckers get away with saying they didn't know. what did they think they were going to be doing? what did they think "mass deportation" means?
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@artemis nevermind trying to "fight from the inside", cause that doesn't work, and ICE will eat itself. it has to. once more people find out how being an employee of ICE works, not many people will want to work for them.
the thing that will work is agitation. make them angry. demoralise them. make them want to fight each other, and let that be a reason they want to leave.
@burnitdown
Diversity of tactics. No one thing brings anything down. It's an accumulation. Why wouldn't we break everything we can break?If not exactly the above proposal, then find how else they can be derailed, demotivated, misdirected, etc. My point is...find the ways we can use their perpetual feelings of grievance.
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@artemis make them angry about it. let them figure it out. they wanted to join, they can deal with the consequences of trying to get out. that's not our problem. it's the same with regular cops.
let's not let these fuckers get away with saying they didn't know. what did they think they were going to be doing? what did they think "mass deportation" means?
@burnitdown
You suggested "here's how to leave" so I was wondering what that would look like. -
@burnitdown
Diversity of tactics. No one thing brings anything down. It's an accumulation. Why wouldn't we break everything we can break?If not exactly the above proposal, then find how else they can be derailed, demotivated, misdirected, etc. My point is...find the ways we can use their perpetual feelings of grievance.
there's "diversity of tactics" and then there's "we know this doesn't work, let's not waste time finding out again".
if it hasn't worked on a regular police department, i wouldn't expect it to work with ICE. what *has* worked is demoralising the cops. put so much pressure on them that they start quitting and no one wants to replace them. police forces are already having a hard time hiring because of this.
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@burnitdown
You suggested "here's how to leave" so I was wondering what that would look like.@artemis i don't know what that would look like. if someone knows the answer, maybe they'll make that poster. my feelings are "oh, white supremacy didn't play out for you this time? boo fucking hoo."
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@Shivaekul
We need infighting in their ranks. It's not enough to demoralize the enemy, we need them to tear each other apart from within.And seriously, I don't think it's encouraging violence really, only directing anger. Quite a few of these people wake up & do violence every day of their lives both on & off the clock. I'd rather that violence hurts others, not us.
@artemis They already are. The culture of violence and domination is an ugly one, there is a lot of infighting and lack of trust already there. A lot of it comes from a place of fear and weakness, and as the pressure builds, that is going to come out. And it does come out constantly, they hurt each other as much as they hurt us.
But if we encourage it, then that violence is still going to come out, and it's still going to hurt us even if it's partially aimed in another direction. That's how it works. This is a cultural fight, rather than encouraging violence we want to show that there is another way, that you don't have to live with fear and anger, that if you can move beyond that you can have a healthy and fulfilling life.
As things get worse the infighting on their side will grow. We want to provide an alternative that is an actual change, not allow them to continue their behavior but think it's okay because they are now on the "right" side.
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Use your own discernment & think about what sorts of things could be effective.
Also, there is no one overarching strategy here. The resistance needs lots of folks/groups operating more or less independently. That does mean we should be intentional about strategy & share with each other what does & doesn't work, but we're not all going for the same tactic. We shouldn't be. There is no "one weird trick" that wins this, no silver bullet.
This is just one avenue that could be explored.
The bigger picture is being imaginative about how we achieve objectives like obstructing work or causing infighting.
We will all find different ways of working towards such goals & we NEED that diversity.
It's important when trying things to think about the possible fallout, learn how other people have applied such solutions successfully or not, & report back what worked & what didn't.
Not every tactic we try is going to turn out to be super effective, but we should be testing & innovating.
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Petty, angry people with no self-control & somehow even less self-awareness do not have a lot of mental defenses when it comes to anything which exploits & plays on their basest feelings of anger & fear.
Maybe it's uncomfortable for some of us to consider using their mental & emotional vulnerabilities against them, but they are RIGHT THERE. MAGA can be played. ICE can be played. Anyone who submits to the brainwashing is an easy target. If you can't save them, fuck with them.
Use your own discernment & think about what sorts of things could be effective.
Also, there is no one overarching strategy here. The resistance needs lots of folks/groups operating more or less independently. That does mean we should be intentional about strategy & share with each other what does & doesn't work, but we're not all going for the same tactic. We shouldn't be. There is no "one weird trick" that wins this, no silver bullet.
This is just one avenue that could be explored.
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The bigger picture is being imaginative about how we achieve objectives like obstructing work or causing infighting.
We will all find different ways of working towards such goals & we NEED that diversity.
It's important when trying things to think about the possible fallout, learn how other people have applied such solutions successfully or not, & report back what worked & what didn't.
Not every tactic we try is going to turn out to be super effective, but we should be testing & innovating.
Y'all, we have whole global systems of oppression to take down. This is the biggest fight of all time & the front lines are everywhere.
It's not just a battle of hearts & minds. It's a real battle too with strategic objectives. Think like a resistance fighter because *you are one*.
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Turn their aggression inward. A lot of them are dudes with a perpetual chip on their shoulder. No matter the "enemy", they are going to want to hurt someone. So...if that anger is going to go somewhere, what can we do to direct it onto their own organization?
@artemis The Night of the Long Knives didn’t do much of anything useful, but it is hilarious to watch nazis killing nazis. The best option is to have the little nazis go after the big nazis, but even convincing the big nazis that the little nazis are a threat so they pull out the Long Knives is a step in the right direction. Whichever way it goes, the rest of us should be ready to finish the work. Whatever that might be…
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Edit: better not to suggest anything specific & give free education on tactics, but I think there's a germ of something here.
Edit2: this is a thread about possible approaches, not me saying "we should do exactly this".
Idea for a poster to put up in areas with large ICE operations:
"Are you an ICE agent?
Do you have no way out?
Here are 5 easy ways to fuck things up from the inside:"I dunno. Is that anything?
@artemis maybe something about just following orders not being sufficient defense too
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Y'all, we have whole global systems of oppression to take down. This is the biggest fight of all time & the front lines are everywhere.
It's not just a battle of hearts & minds. It's a real battle too with strategic objectives. Think like a resistance fighter because *you are one*.
@artemis true.
I'll share that contradict yourself here.
Try to sway the unswayable and at best you've wasted time and resources that could have gone to helping people. At worst, everyone suffers the backlash.
Anyhow, I feel like I'm talking at you with no chance at a conversation, like you'd you already made up your mind when you asked the question above. I'm moving away from this message thread.
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Y'all, we have whole global systems of oppression to take down. This is the biggest fight of all time & the front lines are everywhere.
It's not just a battle of hearts & minds. It's a real battle too with strategic objectives. Think like a resistance fighter because *you are one*.
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And yes, this may be somewhat controversial but I believe just about anyone can change (whether they can be forgiven is an entirely separate question, & I am NOT asking you to do that).
But let me tell you that my escape from the Christian Nationalist cult I experienced was NOT hampered by harshness & anger directed at me from those on the other side. In fact, that confrontation *helped* me leave.
I do not personally believe that "being mean" to people hurts the cause of getting them to reject their brainwashing.
Giving cult members a safe place to land & deconstruct is the best way to help deprogram someone, but they have to *leave* first. Until such time as someone quits being an enemy operative, I'm going to treat them like one.
(And again, nothing about waking up from the cult means that people get away without consequences or that they must be forgiven for the things they've done).
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If we can't get comfortable with the idea of mental/emotional harm coming to the literal concentration camp guards, I think we are going to have a problem.
I do actually believe people can change. But people who are going to change will change when the right catalyst finds them. Until such time we have to proceed like they are an enemy operative *because they are*. Concern for the emotional state of an SS officer is not going to stop me.
And yes, this may be somewhat controversial but I believe just about anyone can change (whether they can be forgiven is an entirely separate question, & I am NOT asking you to do that).
But let me tell you that my escape from the Christian Nationalist cult I experienced was NOT hampered by harshness & anger directed at me from those on the other side. In fact, that confrontation *helped* me leave.
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Y'all, we have whole global systems of oppression to take down. This is the biggest fight of all time & the front lines are everywhere.
It's not just a battle of hearts & minds. It's a real battle too with strategic objectives. Think like a resistance fighter because *you are one*.
If we can't get comfortable with the idea of mental/emotional harm coming to the literal concentration camp guards, I think we are going to have a problem.
I do actually believe people can change. But people who are going to change will change when the right catalyst finds them. Until such time we have to proceed like they are an enemy operative *because they are*. Concern for the emotional state of an SS officer is not going to stop me.
