Edit: better not to suggest anything specific & give free education on tactics, but I think there's a germ of something here.
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Edit: better not to suggest anything specific & give free education on tactics, but I think there's a germ of something here.
Edit2: this is a thread about possible approaches, not me saying "we should do exactly this".
Idea for a poster to put up in areas with large ICE operations:
"Are you an ICE agent?
Do you have no way out?
Here are 5 easy ways to fuck things up from the inside:"I dunno. Is that anything?
Yes!
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There is a seedier side to this, though. It makes me pretty uncomfortable, actually because honesty is one of the things I value most, but sometimes we may need to influence people in less honest & open ways. We need to be clever. We need to use social engineering to exploit mental & emotional vulnerabilities.
It's not nice & it's not pretty. I really personally dislike it & feel uncomfortable with it. I despise manipulation. But...we gotta fuck up the enemy.
To be clear, on here, I will not fucking lie to you.
I will not try to convince you of anything I don't believe. In fact, I will only try to convince someone of things that I think they would want to know.
I don't play games with the truth, not with my friends, my comrades, or anyone who is looking for truth, justice, & compassion. Not doing it.
But other scenarios might call for something less "authentic".
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To be clear, on here, I will not fucking lie to you.
I will not try to convince you of anything I don't believe. In fact, I will only try to convince someone of things that I think they would want to know.
I don't play games with the truth, not with my friends, my comrades, or anyone who is looking for truth, justice, & compassion. Not doing it.
But other scenarios might call for something less "authentic".
Some people are never going to be our friends. Some people will never respond to all our appeals to hear & understand the truth.
Ok...so...what do we do with those people then? They're here. They're dangerous. They're violent.
So if we can't simply get rid of them & we can't get them to meaningfully change, we're going to have to do something else.
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Some people are never going to be our friends. Some people will never respond to all our appeals to hear & understand the truth.
Ok...so...what do we do with those people then? They're here. They're dangerous. They're violent.
So if we can't simply get rid of them & we can't get them to meaningfully change, we're going to have to do something else.
They aren't critical thinkers. They didn't get to where they are by noticing when they're being manipulated. So manipulate the hell out of them. Manipulate them both on an individual level & at scale. Fuck with their heads. Confuse them. Encourage their rage in *certain directions*. You can't deprogram anyone or remove their bigotry through manipulation, but you can find ways to get in their heads & influence them using the self-beliefs & fears they have. These people are easy marks.
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They aren't critical thinkers. They didn't get to where they are by noticing when they're being manipulated. So manipulate the hell out of them. Manipulate them both on an individual level & at scale. Fuck with their heads. Confuse them. Encourage their rage in *certain directions*. You can't deprogram anyone or remove their bigotry through manipulation, but you can find ways to get in their heads & influence them using the self-beliefs & fears they have. These people are easy marks.
If the grunts in ICE don't *yet* feel resentment towards their own organization, we can certainly work towards that goal. There is plenty to work with.
How did bad actors in 2015 manipulate folks online leading up to Trump's election? How did they operate even before then, testing out their ability to influence people using their resentment, insecurities, & persecution complexes?
And then once we've figured that out...what can we use that for?
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If the grunts in ICE don't *yet* feel resentment towards their own organization, we can certainly work towards that goal. There is plenty to work with.
How did bad actors in 2015 manipulate folks online leading up to Trump's election? How did they operate even before then, testing out their ability to influence people using their resentment, insecurities, & persecution complexes?
And then once we've figured that out...what can we use that for?
Petty, angry people with no self-control & somehow even less self-awareness do not have a lot of mental defenses when it comes to anything which exploits & plays on their basest feelings of anger & fear.
Maybe it's uncomfortable for some of us to consider using their mental & emotional vulnerabilities against them, but they are RIGHT THERE. MAGA can be played. ICE can be played. Anyone who submits to the brainwashing is an easy target. If you can't save them, fuck with them.
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Some people are never going to be our friends. Some people will never respond to all our appeals to hear & understand the truth.
Ok...so...what do we do with those people then? They're here. They're dangerous. They're violent.
So if we can't simply get rid of them & we can't get them to meaningfully change, we're going to have to do something else.
@artemis We can take away their power and capacity for violence. Long term that's better than encouraging and directing the violence elsewhere. We do have avenues to make them change, they do feel social pressures, demoralizing them does actually work well. Encouraging violence is counterproductive if we want a world without violence.
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@artemis We can take away their power and capacity for violence. Long term that's better than encouraging and directing the violence elsewhere. We do have avenues to make them change, they do feel social pressures, demoralizing them does actually work well. Encouraging violence is counterproductive if we want a world without violence.
@Shivaekul
We need infighting in their ranks. It's not enough to demoralize the enemy, we need them to tear each other apart from within.And seriously, I don't think it's encouraging violence really, only directing anger. Quite a few of these people wake up & do violence every day of their lives both on & off the clock. I'd rather that violence hurts others, not us.
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Edit: better not to suggest anything specific & give free education on tactics, but I think there's a germ of something here.
Edit2: this is a thread about possible approaches, not me saying "we should do exactly this".
Idea for a poster to put up in areas with large ICE operations:
"Are you an ICE agent?
Do you have no way out?
Here are 5 easy ways to fuck things up from the inside:"I dunno. Is that anything?
i think "here's how to leave" would be better. the run people who run ICE will do enough work fucking it up for their employeees.
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Might need some refining, but a lot of these dudes are fucking *trapped* by their "signing bonus", & whether they are on "our side" or not, they probably resent the people who trapped them in this misery.
i don't think it's worth finding out if some of the poisonous snakes coming at your door are "on your side". you close the door.
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@Shivaekul
But directly turning aggression back on the regime is not the only way such manipulation has the potential to work. Anything that makes them less useful to those weaponizing them, anything the distracts or misleads them could potentially be useful. And I believe their anger & fears will be the way in, because that's how these people are moved.I never exclude the possibility of an individual being able to change, but for every one person who may realize with horror the error of their ways, there are several more who will stay stuck.
The people who are going to change will find their way out, & we can help them if they do, but on the whole these folks don't think for themselves.
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@Shivaekul
We need infighting in their ranks. It's not enough to demoralize the enemy, we need them to tear each other apart from within.And seriously, I don't think it's encouraging violence really, only directing anger. Quite a few of these people wake up & do violence every day of their lives both on & off the clock. I'd rather that violence hurts others, not us.
@Shivaekul
But directly turning aggression back on the regime is not the only way such manipulation has the potential to work. Anything that makes them less useful to those weaponizing them, anything the distracts or misleads them could potentially be useful. And I believe their anger & fears will be the way in, because that's how these people are moved. -
i think "here's how to leave" would be better. the run people who run ICE will do enough work fucking it up for their employeees.
@burnitdown
I don't think some of these folks can leave.If they have to pay back a bonus they already spent in full (even though they never received the full amount themselves due to taxes), how do they leave? What's the way out of that?
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Maybe it should be less specific than listing specific means of obstruction, but why not try to plant the idea that they should fuck with the people who have caught them in a debt trap forcing them to work a truly miserable job?
@artemis nevermind trying to "fight from the inside", cause that doesn't work, and ICE will eat itself. it has to. once more people find out how being an employee of ICE works, not many people will want to work for them.
the thing that will work is agitation. make them angry. demoralise them. make them want to fight each other, and let that be a reason they want to leave.
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Edit: better not to suggest anything specific & give free education on tactics, but I think there's a germ of something here.
Edit2: this is a thread about possible approaches, not me saying "we should do exactly this".
Idea for a poster to put up in areas with large ICE operations:
"Are you an ICE agent?
Do you have no way out?
Here are 5 easy ways to fuck things up from the inside:"I dunno. Is that anything?
@artemis the best thing about it is it'll increase their paranoia. They'll all be wondering "is Bob just kinda incompetent and lazy, or is he a saboteur??? What about Joe?"
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i don't think it's worth finding out if some of the poisonous snakes coming at your door are "on your side". you close the door.
@burnitdown
Like I said, not about getting them on our side. Just about using them. -
@burnitdown
I don't think some of these folks can leave.If they have to pay back a bonus they already spent in full (even though they never received the full amount themselves due to taxes), how do they leave? What's the way out of that?
@artemis make them angry about it. let them figure it out. they wanted to join, they can deal with the consequences of trying to get out. that's not our problem. it's the same with regular cops.
let's not let these fuckers get away with saying they didn't know. what did they think they were going to be doing? what did they think "mass deportation" means?
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@artemis nevermind trying to "fight from the inside", cause that doesn't work, and ICE will eat itself. it has to. once more people find out how being an employee of ICE works, not many people will want to work for them.
the thing that will work is agitation. make them angry. demoralise them. make them want to fight each other, and let that be a reason they want to leave.
@burnitdown
Diversity of tactics. No one thing brings anything down. It's an accumulation. Why wouldn't we break everything we can break?If not exactly the above proposal, then find how else they can be derailed, demotivated, misdirected, etc. My point is...find the ways we can use their perpetual feelings of grievance.
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@artemis make them angry about it. let them figure it out. they wanted to join, they can deal with the consequences of trying to get out. that's not our problem. it's the same with regular cops.
let's not let these fuckers get away with saying they didn't know. what did they think they were going to be doing? what did they think "mass deportation" means?
@burnitdown
You suggested "here's how to leave" so I was wondering what that would look like. -
@burnitdown
Diversity of tactics. No one thing brings anything down. It's an accumulation. Why wouldn't we break everything we can break?If not exactly the above proposal, then find how else they can be derailed, demotivated, misdirected, etc. My point is...find the ways we can use their perpetual feelings of grievance.
there's "diversity of tactics" and then there's "we know this doesn't work, let's not waste time finding out again".
if it hasn't worked on a regular police department, i wouldn't expect it to work with ICE. what *has* worked is demoralising the cops. put so much pressure on them that they start quitting and no one wants to replace them. police forces are already having a hard time hiring because of this.
