Bullies like to say that "might makes right" but they don't *really* want to live by those words.
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@futurebird I've heard this a lot but it it not my experience.
The bully gets the victim on their own and beats them up. The victim, who is the one with visible injuries, is blamed by authority for fighting, whether they did so or not.I think you are right it's a bit more complex than that. And it always starts with what people think they can get away with. A target who can't fight back who has as few allies as possible.
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@futurebird I've heard this a lot but it it not my experience.
The bully gets the victim on their own and beats them up. The victim, who is the one with visible injuries, is blamed by authority for fighting, whether they did so or not.@futurebird I don't think this contradicts what OP said, it's just a slightly more complex strategy for doing the same thing (by manipulating authority into helping with the bullying and/or taking advantage of the fact that authority is often a bully itself).
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Simply fighting back will send a bully into a fit of confusion and fear.
This is why the redistricting fight was so effective.
"But YOU aren't supposed to be like this. You always follow the rules and norms."
Bullies count on us being more in love with our own moral standing than protecting the people we care about. That's a big mistake with me at least.
@futurebird
If I fight back, it is because of my moral standing. If I don't fight back, it's because I think it is against the rules or because I fear the consequences or I just don't want to get involved. -
Simply fighting back will send a bully into a fit of confusion and fear.
This is why the redistricting fight was so effective.
"But YOU aren't supposed to be like this. You always follow the rules and norms."
Bullies count on us being more in love with our own moral standing than protecting the people we care about. That's a big mistake with me at least.
@futurebird The next day after I heard about the California redestricting effort, I got a placard by some earnest-sounding organization full of quotes from patsy Democrats — and maybe Schwarzenegger? — bemoaning the lack of principles of it all.
They were all ready to thwart it with the usual dirty tricks.
Glad it failed!
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Bullies like to say that "might makes right" but they don't *really* want to live by those words.
The entire meta of being a bully is based on targeting the weakest people to show that you *might* not follow the same rules as everyone else if you don't get your way. Your transgression, your disregard for social order scares the mass of people into simply giving you what you want **without a fight.**
As soon as people start fighting back? Bullies loose. They are outnumbered.
@futurebird sure, they rely heavily on intimidation factors: "be compliant, or else,"
but they often DO follow through (enough), so that real harm or starting from a very disadvantaged position is a very real part of it.
I think all of us born into cultures built on colonization, which NECESSARILY normalized authoritarian based assumptions/values (even while mouthing democracy based values as well) have a difficult time "getting" just how many authoritarian based notions we live with
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@futurebird I don't think this contradicts what OP said, it's just a slightly more complex strategy for doing the same thing (by manipulating authority into helping with the bullying and/or taking advantage of the fact that authority is often a bully itself).
@kechpaja @RogerBW @futurebird
Slightly? -not- trying to be rude, but it's kind of like saying billionaires use slightly more complex strategies to hoard money than other people.
They use -a bunch- of sophisticated strategies to rig entire systems.
Unfortunately people can get really GOOD at all kinds of things. They'll even form extensive and pretty sophisticated groups of bullies...
Authoritarians ALL want to hoard power and control -they are driven towards it. So they get good at it.
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Simply fighting back will send a bully into a fit of confusion and fear.
This is why the redistricting fight was so effective.
"But YOU aren't supposed to be like this. You always follow the rules and norms."
Bullies count on us being more in love with our own moral standing than protecting the people we care about. That's a big mistake with me at least.
@futurebird yeah our version of this for ourselves is, not everybody gets to be pure. heh.
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@futurebird yeah our version of this for ourselves is, not everybody gets to be pure. heh.
@futurebird (though we worry about that inadvertently promoting elitist narratives or overly hierarchical theories of change, and don't encourage mass adoption of it as a slogan)
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Simply fighting back will send a bully into a fit of confusion and fear.
This is why the redistricting fight was so effective.
"But YOU aren't supposed to be like this. You always follow the rules and norms."
Bullies count on us being more in love with our own moral standing than protecting the people we care about. That's a big mistake with me at least.
@futurebird I'll admit, I've long cheered on non-partisan redistricting laws to try and draw things as fair as possible, even if it meant that the red states fucked around with shit and got advantages. Because I like fairness. But now that SCOTUS has said the VRA is all but dead, and there's no relief from the courts to be sought, and they're just going to blatantly steal seats in the middle of the decade? Yeah fuck that shit.
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@futurebird yeah our version of this for ourselves is, not everybody gets to be pure. heh.
@ireneista @futurebird The "they go low, we go high" doesn't work when your opponents don't have any shame and a majority of voters either cheer on the sucker punching or at least don't mind the fact that it's happening.
The only winning move is to race to the bottom.
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@ireneista @futurebird The "they go low, we go high" doesn't work when your opponents don't have any shame and a majority of voters either cheer on the sucker punching or at least don't mind the fact that it's happening.
The only winning move is to race to the bottom.
@JessTheUnstill @futurebird at the same time, the means do become the ends and we always have to actively ask ourselves, if we win using these tactics, what world will that create, will it embody justice?
whatever we do to create a new status quo, we'll be periodically obligated to re-enact it as long as the status quo lasts, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise.
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@JessTheUnstill @futurebird at the same time, the means do become the ends and we always have to actively ask ourselves, if we win using these tactics, what world will that create, will it embody justice?
whatever we do to create a new status quo, we'll be periodically obligated to re-enact it as long as the status quo lasts, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise.
@JessTheUnstill @futurebird it's just... none of those concerns should stop us from considering things. they're part of it, but only part.
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Simply fighting back will send a bully into a fit of confusion and fear.
This is why the redistricting fight was so effective.
"But YOU aren't supposed to be like this. You always follow the rules and norms."
Bullies count on us being more in love with our own moral standing than protecting the people we care about. That's a big mistake with me at least.
@futurebird
Bullies also think you are scared of taking a punch and will chicken out. Because THEY are scared of taking a punch.And they might be right too.
Best cure for that is actually taking a punch. Getting punched in the face isn't fun, but it might be a lot less bad than you fear. You might find it more energizing than painful.
In my experience, bullies though, when they actually do get punched back, cry a lot.
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@futurebird
Bullies also think you are scared of taking a punch and will chicken out. Because THEY are scared of taking a punch.And they might be right too.
Best cure for that is actually taking a punch. Getting punched in the face isn't fun, but it might be a lot less bad than you fear. You might find it more energizing than painful.
In my experience, bullies though, when they actually do get punched back, cry a lot.
@futurebird
(For the literal minded: "punch" here is metaphorical for "fight back," and not an argument for violence.) -
@ireneista @futurebird The "they go low, we go high" doesn't work when your opponents don't have any shame and a majority of voters either cheer on the sucker punching or at least don't mind the fact that it's happening.
The only winning move is to race to the bottom.
I think this is also playing a role in the "it's fake" response to this shooting. It's not so much that anyone wants to make up a elaborate theory about how it was staged, it's more a desire not to be jerked around emotionally again.
These very grim events are just media games and exploited so quickly and cynically it makes me feel like a chump to sit here going "I agree political violence is wrong"
It's fake. I'm not playing along. Have fun.
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I think this is also playing a role in the "it's fake" response to this shooting. It's not so much that anyone wants to make up a elaborate theory about how it was staged, it's more a desire not to be jerked around emotionally again.
These very grim events are just media games and exploited so quickly and cynically it makes me feel like a chump to sit here going "I agree political violence is wrong"
It's fake. I'm not playing along. Have fun.
I cannot take this seriously. I do not have the energy to try and sort out any real harm from the fake drama.
And I don't trust anything the white-house says since they lie so much.
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I think this is also playing a role in the "it's fake" response to this shooting. It's not so much that anyone wants to make up a elaborate theory about how it was staged, it's more a desire not to be jerked around emotionally again.
These very grim events are just media games and exploited so quickly and cynically it makes me feel like a chump to sit here going "I agree political violence is wrong"
It's fake. I'm not playing along. Have fun.
@futurebird @JessTheUnstill yeah. we do very much encourage not playing drama games. the whole circus is trying to manipulate people's emotions with this whole roller coaster...
importantly, that has nothing to do with the underlying reality of the events
the trick is to not get led around emotionally while also not having our ability to perceive reality destroyed. disinformation is trying to destroy the concept of truth; we can't let it
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Bullies like to say that "might makes right" but they don't *really* want to live by those words.
The entire meta of being a bully is based on targeting the weakest people to show that you *might* not follow the same rules as everyone else if you don't get your way. Your transgression, your disregard for social order scares the mass of people into simply giving you what you want **without a fight.**
As soon as people start fighting back? Bullies loose. They are outnumbered.
@futurebird it only took 16 years of operating norms being openly and wantonly violated for the Dems to buy a clue.
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I cannot take this seriously. I do not have the energy to try and sort out any real harm from the fake drama.
And I don't trust anything the white-house says since they lie so much.
@futurebird @ireneista That's not what I was trying to say and I apologize if that's how it came out. I, for one, don't think it was staged, but the response is straight out of their standard playbook they all have agreed upon in advance for any time "political violence" happens.
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@futurebird @ireneista That's not what I was trying to say and I apologize if that's how it came out. I, for one, don't think it was staged, but the response is straight out of their standard playbook they all have agreed upon in advance for any time "political violence" happens.
I was just thinking of another example of "not playing nice" I didn't mean to tie that to your comment directly.
But it's just that playbook that I'm sick of seeing people go along with as if any of the people calling for "respect" are even sad about anything.
It feels fake.
