15 years ago, I co-authored my first paper in the field of #LightPollution studies: https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0017307
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@reay @jameshowell @GeoffWozniak These days seeing the Milky Way in a natural setting is something that is experienced mainly by only the poorest of the poor and the richest of the rich.
@skyglowberlin @reay @GeoffWozniak More bizarre irony.
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@reay @jameshowell @GeoffWozniak These days seeing the Milky Way in a natural setting is something that is experienced mainly by only the poorest of the poor and the richest of the rich.
@skyglowberlin @jameshowell @GeoffWozniak I get your point but respectfully disagree.
Anyone already in less populated areas can just look up at night and have a good shot at spotting the Milky Way.
People in more populated places but with a vehicle — not terribly uncommon — can head out of their city to get less light pollution and probably see the Milky Way. Here in Toronto, even if you head down to the lake (a walk for some, a cheap transit ride for most others), you can see way more in the night sky over the water than one may expect.
I suspect the larger reason people aren’t seeing it is just way more attention on produced entertainment (phones and streaming, etc.) than on interest in natural phenomena. No matter how accessible something may be, if you have no interest in it, it’s the same result.
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@skyglowberlin They jumped back in the car and calmed down. We kept on to our destination. I was too young really even to understand what had happened, much less how to react constructively. I don't remember what I said. I was probably an asshole to them.
@jameshowell Oh no, sorry to hear that.
The Adler Teens program has taken Chicago teenagers to a park outside of the city and had the experience that some of the kids were terrified of getting off the bus, because "going out in the dark is dangerous" has been so deeply drilled into them by (well meaning) adults.
I think if I've remembered right they've generally had success getting everyone to see the stars, but it's a scary process for some people.
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@skyglowberlin @jameshowell @GeoffWozniak I get your point but respectfully disagree.
Anyone already in less populated areas can just look up at night and have a good shot at spotting the Milky Way.
People in more populated places but with a vehicle — not terribly uncommon — can head out of their city to get less light pollution and probably see the Milky Way. Here in Toronto, even if you head down to the lake (a walk for some, a cheap transit ride for most others), you can see way more in the night sky over the water than one may expect.
I suspect the larger reason people aren’t seeing it is just way more attention on produced entertainment (phones and streaming, etc.) than on interest in natural phenomena. No matter how accessible something may be, if you have no interest in it, it’s the same result.
@reay @jameshowell @GeoffWozniak You are right that you often don't have to go so far to get a hint of the Milky Way. In fact, I've seen it (and photographed it) from the city center of Potsdam, Germany (population ~180,000).
But catching a fuzzy glimpse of the Milky Way and "seeing the Milky Way in a natural setting" (as I said above) are completely different experiences.
When you see the Milky Way in an area with some degree of light pollution, it's a nice experience and it looks kind of interesting. When you see it in a place with no or next to no light pollution you are CONFRONTED WITH THE COSMOS.
Algonquin National Park is 250 km from Toronto and still has a zenith sky brightness that's ~1% brighter than natural - and the horizon will be far brighter than that. You have to get 350 km from Toronto until the zenith is natural, and even then the horizon in most directions is going to be bright rather than dark.
That being said, getting to ANY place that's not lit by directly artificial lights, even an urban rooftop or park, will allow you to see far more than you would guess.
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@reay @jameshowell @GeoffWozniak You are right that you often don't have to go so far to get a hint of the Milky Way. In fact, I've seen it (and photographed it) from the city center of Potsdam, Germany (population ~180,000).
But catching a fuzzy glimpse of the Milky Way and "seeing the Milky Way in a natural setting" (as I said above) are completely different experiences.
When you see the Milky Way in an area with some degree of light pollution, it's a nice experience and it looks kind of interesting. When you see it in a place with no or next to no light pollution you are CONFRONTED WITH THE COSMOS.
Algonquin National Park is 250 km from Toronto and still has a zenith sky brightness that's ~1% brighter than natural - and the horizon will be far brighter than that. You have to get 350 km from Toronto until the zenith is natural, and even then the horizon in most directions is going to be bright rather than dark.
That being said, getting to ANY place that's not lit by directly artificial lights, even an urban rooftop or park, will allow you to see far more than you would guess.
@skyglowberlin @reay @jameshowell Even the parks are becoming a problem. As someone who has been camping in parks for nearly 30 years, the last few years I've seen people put up floodlights on poles in their campsites that light up entire open areas, and they are projecting movies onto screens.
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@jameshowell Oh no, sorry to hear that.
The Adler Teens program has taken Chicago teenagers to a park outside of the city and had the experience that some of the kids were terrified of getting off the bus, because "going out in the dark is dangerous" has been so deeply drilled into them by (well meaning) adults.
I think if I've remembered right they've generally had success getting everyone to see the stars, but it's a scary process for some people.
@skyglowberlin They were not afraid of the dark. They had a genuinely Lovecraftian moment when "CONFRONTED WITH THE COSMOS."
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@skyglowberlin @reay @jameshowell Even the parks are becoming a problem. As someone who has been camping in parks for nearly 30 years, the last few years I've seen people put up floodlights on poles in their campsites that light up entire open areas, and they are projecting movies onto screens.
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@skyglowberlin They were not afraid of the dark. They had a genuinely Lovecraftian moment when "CONFRONTED WITH THE COSMOS."
@jameshowell Got it. Man, what a scene, I can imagine why that stuck with you as a memory.
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@jameshowell Got it. Man, what a scene, I can imagine why that stuck with you as a memory.
@jameshowell Very Issac Asimov "Nightfall"
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@jameshowell Very Issac Asimov "Nightfall"
@skyglowberlin Just like that.
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@skyglowberlin When I teach about retinal physiology, it breaks my heart. Often there isn't a single student who has ever experienced vision after true dark adaptation.
It turns out that—it takes time, but it's real—you can see by starlight. And the faintest stars you see? That's a single rod cell detecting A SINGLE PHOTON. Your retina is that sensitive.
Before 1879 this was an absolutely universal human experience. Now it's exotic, unimaginable.
@jameshowell @siracusa @skyglowberlin What I miss most about my hometown in rural eastern Washington State is the night sky.
It wasn't akin to being in Antarctica or anything, but I DID grow up being able to stare up to see the “band” of the Milky Way. One of my first major interests as a kid was astronomy. Even had my own telescope.
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@skyglowberlin I teach large university science courses. Hundreds of fairly privileged students in the room. It has been my habit to ask them to raise their hands if they have ever seen the Milky Way.
The results have always been disappointing. Over the past 20 years it has gotten worse and worse. Recently many students don't even know what I mean by the question, and I have to explain what a dark sky looks like.
"Raise your hand if you have ever been awed by a clear dark sky full of countless, countless stars." Always less than 5%.
@jameshowell @skyglowberlin @siracusa It’s truly awe inspiring, isn’t it?
Copper Breaks State Park, TX — Bortle Class 2 dark sky designated.
Taken with my iPhone 14 Pro, merely leaning against a bench, in July 2024.
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@jameshowell @siracusa @skyglowberlin What I miss most about my hometown in rural eastern Washington State is the night sky.
It wasn't akin to being in Antarctica or anything, but I DID grow up being able to stare up to see the “band” of the Milky Way. One of my first major interests as a kid was astronomy. Even had my own telescope.
@jameshowell @siracusa @skyglowberlin I now live just outside of Los Angeles.
LA has made great strides in reducing air pollution, but light pollution still basically precludes any real observation of the night sky. Stars are barely a thing here.
If I were a kid living here I very much doubt I'd have developed that interest in astronomy.
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@jameshowell @siracusa @skyglowberlin What I miss most about my hometown in rural eastern Washington State is the night sky.
It wasn't akin to being in Antarctica or anything, but I DID grow up being able to stare up to see the “band” of the Milky Way. One of my first major interests as a kid was astronomy. Even had my own telescope.
@jeff @jameshowell @siracusa @skyglowberlin Ditto my hometown in eastern Idaho. I remember flying home from school in Houston for Christmas back in the late 1980s, stepping out the airport door, and OMG, I haven't seen so many stars in a loooong time.
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@skyglowberlin I teach large university science courses. Hundreds of fairly privileged students in the room. It has been my habit to ask them to raise their hands if they have ever seen the Milky Way.
The results have always been disappointing. Over the past 20 years it has gotten worse and worse. Recently many students don't even know what I mean by the question, and I have to explain what a dark sky looks like.
"Raise your hand if you have ever been awed by a clear dark sky full of countless, countless stars." Always less than 5%.
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@skyglowberlin When I teach about retinal physiology, it breaks my heart. Often there isn't a single student who has ever experienced vision after true dark adaptation.
It turns out that—it takes time, but it's real—you can see by starlight. And the faintest stars you see? That's a single rod cell detecting A SINGLE PHOTON. Your retina is that sensitive.
Before 1879 this was an absolutely universal human experience. Now it's exotic, unimaginable.
@jameshowell @skyglowberlin When I would take my kids camping far far away from the city lights, we would always go out late at night, down to the beach at the river and lay there in the dark, looking at the stars for 30-60 minutes. And the kids always wanted to use their flashlights but I forbid them. They never had problems getting back to camp on the way back.
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@skyglowberlin I teach large university science courses. Hundreds of fairly privileged students in the room. It has been my habit to ask them to raise their hands if they have ever seen the Milky Way.
The results have always been disappointing. Over the past 20 years it has gotten worse and worse. Recently many students don't even know what I mean by the question, and I have to explain what a dark sky looks like.
"Raise your hand if you have ever been awed by a clear dark sky full of countless, countless stars." Always less than 5%.
Thirty years ago I went on a weeklong journey through an African desert. We slept on the sand under the stars. I had never seen anything like it and I've never seen anything like it ever again. It changed my view of the world.
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@skyglowberlin When I teach about retinal physiology, it breaks my heart. Often there isn't a single student who has ever experienced vision after true dark adaptation.
It turns out that—it takes time, but it's real—you can see by starlight. And the faintest stars you see? That's a single rod cell detecting A SINGLE PHOTON. Your retina is that sensitive.
Before 1879 this was an absolutely universal human experience. Now it's exotic, unimaginable.
@jameshowell @skyglowberlin a few years ago I joined a Meetup for a night walk in the Japanese alps. The guide, who also sailed, gave us red LEDs to get to our starting point, where there was no artificial light. Then we turned the torches off and waited half an hour for our eyes to adapt. It was amazing, I’d never experienced anything like it.
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@jameshowell @siracusa @skyglowberlin What I miss most about my hometown in rural eastern Washington State is the night sky.
It wasn't akin to being in Antarctica or anything, but I DID grow up being able to stare up to see the “band” of the Milky Way. One of my first major interests as a kid was astronomy. Even had my own telescope.
@jeff @jameshowell @siracusa You can still see the Milky Way outside of the small town where I grew up, but it's a lot more washed out than it was when I was a child, and the glow from Edmonton that used to be contained towards one horizon has stretched to the Zenith.
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@vik @jameshowell I don't have much experience with caves (or access to them), but I've had similar experiences in indoor spaces with strong light shielding.
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