Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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@trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron fedi is like a big restaurant (https://www.esdin.net/post/the-restaurant-analogy-mastodon-the-fediverse)
and anyone can have their own community. That having been said, nobody is forced to be an audience for things they aren't interested in. Fedi has a culture, pretty diverse and inclusive of all who aren't obnoxious. Some people don't understand fedi culture when they come over from other more "obnoxiousness normalized" places, and can't handle the culture shift. Fedizens tend to be hostile to influencers and the ragebait that tends to be promoted on obnoxious networks. Fedi skews very anticapitalist and hostile as fuck to capitalist argument amplification and the "social networks must keep growing or lose relevance" mentality. Fedi is too big already, actually... The big instances are too big to moderate. People have said that for years. Fedi is like making real life friends. Remember that? Corp platforms try to make us forget human connection in favor of parasocial bs that keeps people from making real friends.Gross AI art isn't winning this any readers
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@TeflonTrout @Mabande @corbden @isagalaev @scottjenson @devlord @carnage4life Is this the post I saw you subtooting about? I’ve seen people making the “echo chamber” argument before and they basically want to spew bigotry without consequences. I thought that was what you were subtooting about. But this isn’t that. I feel like one of us has misunderstood something and decided to get really mad over it.
@MisuseCase @Mabande @corbden @isagalaev @scottjenson @devlord @carnage4life
Good looking out, but it is not. I'll try and find the original later, I got busy at work. It was a journalist type who posted the one I'm talking about. Thank you for checking though.
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson I'm not sure what the problem is supposed to be here. The fediverse has about 1/10th the MAUs of either of the other two platforms, so 18k is a proportionately high number of followers. Lower engagement makes sense with fewer followers, but without more info, it's impossible to know if that engagement is disproportionately lower. And particularly given Meta's forays into AI bots, there's a good chance that more of Mastodon's engagement is authentic. If anything, I'd say that post speaks comparatively well of Mastodon's embrace of journalists. Our big sin is just not being as populous as the corporate platforms.
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@cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron This is a very rich ethics question hidden in a specific example.
Would you permit or allow any community with which you disagree to participate on a platform, even if you’re not forced to participate?
A shortlist of thought experiments, to broaden the perspective, some of which are already here, some not…
- The oil & gas community
- Forestry workers (logging)
- The cryptocurrency community
- Workers at a chick rendering plant
- The finance industry
- Adult content creators
- Religious communitiesIs there a litmus test for topics that you can or can’t discuss on the fediverse? Specific servers sure, but the whole fediverse?
Does that align with the values put forth by mastodon or the fediverse in general?
I don’t have the answers.
@trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron AI adult content creators at the chick rendering plant.
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@trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron Not sure how a discussion of what is *allowed* is relevant here. AI talk certainly isn't forbidden.
@tarmil @trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron Yeah, we talk about AI every day here on Mastodon. For entertainment purposes only (to quote Microsoft).
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
anyone who unironically uses the word "engagement" to describe social interactions can fuck themselves off a cliff. their priorities are sick and their motivations are deranged, and workshopping ways to attract more content farmers isn't going improve anything
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Gross AI art isn't winning this any readers
@Officeplant I know. I agree. I didn't write it, I thought the article itself was well written despite the gross ai "art".
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson maybe don’t conflate “AI People” with marginalized communities you ignoramus.
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@scottjenson I’m not interested in following any “AI people”. That doesn’t make it an echo chamber. We don’t need equal amounts of people who love puppies and want to kill puppies, not everything needs to be equally represented.
@Gargron @scottjenson I used to joke that I'm just a perl script, and LLMs went and ruined the joke.
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@scottjenson it’s kind of what you said. Read what you said again if you don’t believe me. Black Twitter didn’t succeed on Mastodon not due to “gatekeeping”. But a failure of gatekeeping, at keeping the baddies out. E.g. racists or those not sensitive enough to recognize their racism.
@devlord @scottjenson current theory: scott is jake archibald with a stick on moustache
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson Which part of "federated" has your precious Apple-trained and AI-fawning mind not been able to wrap around? Go ahead and build a community of prompt fondlers. You can then all sit around and fondle prompts in your timelines. It'll be great. And the rest of this federated mess IS TOTALLY WITHIN THEIR RIGHTS to block your prompt fondling instance. Like we block nazi instances. And Trump instances. And whatever-the-fuck-else instances we don't want nothing to do with. It's FEDERATED. You not getting that in your head is your fault alone.
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@bogosian @scottjenson I’m not head of Mastodon! Have a good day.
@Gargron @bogosian @scottjenson Yeah, direct all complaints to John Mastodon
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@Gargron @bogosian @scottjenson they must've mistaken you for John. easy mistake to make.
@falcennial @Gargron @bogosian @scottjenson I should have named my instance admin account John… regrets.
Suppose I can spin up another account for when he’s summoned.
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson the solution would be focusing on harm reduction when responding to AI topics
this is one of those classic problems that cannot be solved with tech - only with community and communication
(also your comments around this topic eerily remind me of X acting entitled to their previous advertisers - nobody is stopped from joining and sharing their stuff, but also not entitled to engagement on it)
YinYin Falcon (@YinYinFalcon@mastodon.online)
incredibly important video on harm reduction from LLMs on an individual/interpersonal level https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y85nqc2zm7M
Mastodon (mastodon.online)
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson but no one disallows that…? Ever thought about the idea that people here don’t WANT this much AI stuff? I think people on Mastodon are generally more critical of AI and see it more nuanced than the current hype in mainstream media. And this reflects in the engagement. I have more engagement and more followers in my niche hobby topics here on Mastodon than I ever had on Birdsite. I think communities here form much more naturally instead of being shoved into your stream.
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson @carnage4life Let me guess, "Mastodon [is] ... lukewarm to politics" is because you're refusing to CW stuff and have bad takes?
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson "How do we attract the shittiest people in existence to this platform that is currently enjoying the absence of said shitty people?"
We don't. Put the crackpipe down.
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson @carnage4life nobody is stopping ai bros from coming over here. Most people just don’t like you, that’s all. With no “for you” algorithm this becomes clearer.
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@scottjenson the solution would be focusing on harm reduction when responding to AI topics
this is one of those classic problems that cannot be solved with tech - only with community and communication
(also your comments around this topic eerily remind me of X acting entitled to their previous advertisers - nobody is stopped from joining and sharing their stuff, but also not entitled to engagement on it)
YinYin Falcon (@YinYinFalcon@mastodon.online)
incredibly important video on harm reduction from LLMs on an individual/interpersonal level https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y85nqc2zm7M
Mastodon (mastodon.online)
the hostility towards AI and leaders/companies pushing it is perfectly fine
it doing collateral antagonising of people reporting/talking about it is not
good luck trying to figure that out
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@evan @cratermoon Exactly, even asking that question "What value do they bring" is kind of scary.
It's a fine line, I get it. We draw the line at nazis and scammers but let's not cross the line into "intellectual purity" tests
@scottjenson @evan @cratermoon but no one is stopping them from joining? But people are free to not follow or interact if they don’t want to.
