If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right?
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@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
Just sharing this because I have so much respect for you Joscelyn. Maybe you can help explain what I don't see, or maybe it's just that I'm not being understood, either way I want to understand better.
@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
and yes. Obviously the heat of the moment made it a *lot* more important
, but it's not like this isn't something we don't run into allllll the time. But yeah. It's already tomorrow and I'm still fired up about it lol -
@revoluciana Imagine a tech job posting where you had to bet on who would get an interview, just based on their resume.
There are two resumes, equally qualified, but the names on the resumes are Mark and Linda.
Who are you placing your money on to get that interview? Because statistically it's Mark.
And it doesn't matter if Mark is actually a trans woman who hasn't transitioned yet, because that is entirely irrelevant to whether Mark had an advantaged position for the job over Linda.
@ellesaurus hmm. I appreciate what you're saying, and on the surface, I get it, but this doesn't click for me the way that I think it's intended.
First, I don't think we have statistics on that when it comes to closeted trans women, so this lumps trans women in with men, which I don't think is fair, and even if we did, I'm not sure it accounts for other correlary and possibly causitive factors, (prevelance of neurodivergence, few career options open to trans women, motivating benefits like money/insurance for surgery, etc.) especially as I don't know a ton about the tech field.
But I more significantly, I know that because of my perceived queerness, I don't think I would have made the bet on myself if it was Linda vs my pre-transition self. People perceived my queerness, my femininity, and I was punished or penalized for it, which includes not being treated as a typical "man" in these sorts of scenarios. I wasn't only treated as less than man, but often less than woman.
Someone suggested the idea of male-passing privilege as opposed to simply male privilege. I'm not sure how I feel about this as I haven't fully digested it, but I think that in your scenario I can definitely see it fitting better. Because I never passed that well pretending to be a man, and I think that passing can absolutely make a big difference when it comes to accessing privilege, if that's the lens we use.
I really appreciate your input. Here and other times that you've helped enlighten me or lead me to water. Thank you for this.
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@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
and yes. Obviously the heat of the moment made it a *lot* more important
, but it's not like this isn't something we don't run into allllll the time. But yeah. It's already tomorrow and I'm still fired up about it lol@revoluciana @faithisleaping that’s more what I’m seeing, and why I suggested actually focusing on parsing that and rooting it in what these claims mean for you - that’s where you have something that is driving you right now and needs expressing and reflection. That just looks like getting more specific and such, rather than debating in the general.
And don’t worry, we are friends and I know you, I’m not offended or angry or anything either. Just in a mental fatigue space where debating stuff is challenging….and like, I’m also not entirely disagreeing with you if you look at the examples, just trying to apply a different framing, because you’re not wrong about what the original framing is getting wrong.
And i hope nothing I said is meant to imply you shouldn’t be discussing this or that you have to have studied it deeply or something. I just was struggling to articulate specifics in my mental fatigue. Last week of TMS…and I just want to be sleepy sloth girl
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@DavidM_yeg thank you, I'll think on this. Appreciated.
Just to be clear: thinking about my childhood as a fairly mundane cis guy in the 70/80s, I can’t begin to imagine what that experience would have been like for a trans person who wouldn’t fit even to the limited extent that I did, I really sorry/saddened that you experienced that.
If this thread comes out of someone else suggesting that somehow being granted privilege in any way balances or diminishes what you experienced, they are spewing a giant pile of shit.
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@revoluciana oof, so, I have complicated thoughts on this. Bear with me.
When trans women in technical positions suddenly find themselves being underestimated and undermined by their colleagues who previously viewed them as competent, that is some form of privilege lost, right?
But it's still worth it, so it's not so cut-and-dried as being a single, unidirectional transaction. This is where I think the concept of privilege fails us, or at least doesn't permit the necessary nuance.
If we talk about protection, we can talk about appearing male as being a form of protection. It may not be healthy or wise or right, but there is some reason people might choose it anyway, and that reason can be considered a privilege, in that it's not automatic and not everyone can opt in at the drop of a hat. There are people who would choose to temporarily present as male when walking down a dark alley, but can't. They lack that option.
But again, that doesn't mean it's right or worth it or comes without repercussions. It just means it's an option -- or even something that happens without their opting in -- that some people have and some don't. The way "male privilege" is usually discussed is implicitly the much more narrow case where it's consensual and without repercussions, and that's where people end up talking at cross-purposes while using ostensibly the same language.
@revoluciana I think it's also worth considering that many forms of male privilege are bought and paid for -- at lower but nonzero price. At worst, people degrade and contort themselves to fit in a certain image because it's socially advantageous. The effeminate gay son of a "man's man" can tell horror stories of how he's forced into an image of manhood very different from how he sees himself. Is that whole experience, in context, a reflection of privilege relative to others? Hell no. Is it a reflection of how a certain type of masculinity comes with privileges, compared to the type he's comfortable with? Yes. A gay man suffering from being boxed into traditional masculinity is experiencing male privilege from one of the angles we don't normally ascribe to the term.
It's being weaponized against him, as it is against trans women. He can experience some ghost of acceptance or power if he complies, and he could even turn that against someone else if he chose -- all those lawmakers who vilify and criminalize drag and end up being drag queens themselves? that right there. People wouldn't be forced into any of this if it weren't linked somehow to power. It's not remotely the same thing as the unconditional privilege of being born into wealth or high social standing, but it's a form of social currency. I think the fact that people pursue it as a matter of survival is an argument for it being a form of privilege.
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@revoluciana oof, so, I have complicated thoughts on this. Bear with me.
When trans women in technical positions suddenly find themselves being underestimated and undermined by their colleagues who previously viewed them as competent, that is some form of privilege lost, right?
But it's still worth it, so it's not so cut-and-dried as being a single, unidirectional transaction. This is where I think the concept of privilege fails us, or at least doesn't permit the necessary nuance.
If we talk about protection, we can talk about appearing male as being a form of protection. It may not be healthy or wise or right, but there is some reason people might choose it anyway, and that reason can be considered a privilege, in that it's not automatic and not everyone can opt in at the drop of a hat. There are people who would choose to temporarily present as male when walking down a dark alley, but can't. They lack that option.
But again, that doesn't mean it's right or worth it or comes without repercussions. It just means it's an option -- or even something that happens without their opting in -- that some people have and some don't. The way "male privilege" is usually discussed is implicitly the much more narrow case where it's consensual and without repercussions, and that's where people end up talking at cross-purposes while using ostensibly the same language.
@iris I really appreciate this take. And I think your phrasing puts it best when you say "This is where I think the concept of privilege fails us..." Like. I understand and acknowledge that *something* happens that many perceive simplistically as privilege, but yeah, it just feels like the idea of it also simplistically being framed as "male privilege" is the wrong lens, and worse, it feels like a harmful lens when applied to trans women and transfem people.
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@iris I really appreciate this take. And I think your phrasing puts it best when you say "This is where I think the concept of privilege fails us..." Like. I understand and acknowledge that *something* happens that many perceive simplistically as privilege, but yeah, it just feels like the idea of it also simplistically being framed as "male privilege" is the wrong lens, and worse, it feels like a harmful lens when applied to trans women and transfem people.
@revoluciana I'm so glad it landed right. The topic has been weaponized to the point that I normally avoid talking about it for fear of immediately talking past the other person.
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The Bacha Posh example reminds me of something that I read about a small demographic, I think it was within Albania. If a family has only daughters, it is acceptable if the oldest daughter (and only the oldest IIRC) who can take on the role of a son..The way that I remember it is that they had to consent to doing the new role. But once that person has accepted the new role, he was treated as a son/boy/man and would then IMO have male privilege in the community.
@RuthODay2 @dlakelan I've spent quite a bit of time working in Kosovo (greater Albania), and unless this is an older thing, I don't think it's been a thing there for a long time if ever, but I could be mistaken. But I absolutely believe it's a thing *somewhere* especially given the Bacha Posh example that I only became aware of through my Afghan work.
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@ellesaurus hmm. I appreciate what you're saying, and on the surface, I get it, but this doesn't click for me the way that I think it's intended.
First, I don't think we have statistics on that when it comes to closeted trans women, so this lumps trans women in with men, which I don't think is fair, and even if we did, I'm not sure it accounts for other correlary and possibly causitive factors, (prevelance of neurodivergence, few career options open to trans women, motivating benefits like money/insurance for surgery, etc.) especially as I don't know a ton about the tech field.
But I more significantly, I know that because of my perceived queerness, I don't think I would have made the bet on myself if it was Linda vs my pre-transition self. People perceived my queerness, my femininity, and I was punished or penalized for it, which includes not being treated as a typical "man" in these sorts of scenarios. I wasn't only treated as less than man, but often less than woman.
Someone suggested the idea of male-passing privilege as opposed to simply male privilege. I'm not sure how I feel about this as I haven't fully digested it, but I think that in your scenario I can definitely see it fitting better. Because I never passed that well pretending to be a man, and I think that passing can absolutely make a big difference when it comes to accessing privilege, if that's the lens we use.
I really appreciate your input. Here and other times that you've helped enlighten me or lead me to water. Thank you for this.
@revoluciana I think you've misunderstood with " I don't think we have statistics on that when it comes to closeted trans women".
In my hypothetical it's not relevant at all. Literally all you have is the name. Suffering in other areas of life doesn't change societal bias.
I think your point is also shifting a bit. Are you saying no trans women have ever had male privilege, or that you think some trans women haven't? Because those are very different claims.
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@revoluciana @faithisleaping that’s more what I’m seeing, and why I suggested actually focusing on parsing that and rooting it in what these claims mean for you - that’s where you have something that is driving you right now and needs expressing and reflection. That just looks like getting more specific and such, rather than debating in the general.
And don’t worry, we are friends and I know you, I’m not offended or angry or anything either. Just in a mental fatigue space where debating stuff is challenging….and like, I’m also not entirely disagreeing with you if you look at the examples, just trying to apply a different framing, because you’re not wrong about what the original framing is getting wrong.
And i hope nothing I said is meant to imply you shouldn’t be discussing this or that you have to have studied it deeply or something. I just was struggling to articulate specifics in my mental fatigue. Last week of TMS…and I just want to be sleepy sloth girl
@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
You're wonderful. Love you, friend!
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Just to be clear: thinking about my childhood as a fairly mundane cis guy in the 70/80s, I can’t begin to imagine what that experience would have been like for a trans person who wouldn’t fit even to the limited extent that I did, I really sorry/saddened that you experienced that.
If this thread comes out of someone else suggesting that somehow being granted privilege in any way balances or diminishes what you experienced, they are spewing a giant pile of shit.
@DavidM_yeg very much appreciated
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@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
You're wonderful. Love you, friend!
@revoluciana @faithisleaping love you too!
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@revoluciana I think it's also worth considering that many forms of male privilege are bought and paid for -- at lower but nonzero price. At worst, people degrade and contort themselves to fit in a certain image because it's socially advantageous. The effeminate gay son of a "man's man" can tell horror stories of how he's forced into an image of manhood very different from how he sees himself. Is that whole experience, in context, a reflection of privilege relative to others? Hell no. Is it a reflection of how a certain type of masculinity comes with privileges, compared to the type he's comfortable with? Yes. A gay man suffering from being boxed into traditional masculinity is experiencing male privilege from one of the angles we don't normally ascribe to the term.
It's being weaponized against him, as it is against trans women. He can experience some ghost of acceptance or power if he complies, and he could even turn that against someone else if he chose -- all those lawmakers who vilify and criminalize drag and end up being drag queens themselves? that right there. People wouldn't be forced into any of this if it weren't linked somehow to power. It's not remotely the same thing as the unconditional privilege of being born into wealth or high social standing, but it's a form of social currency. I think the fact that people pursue it as a matter of survival is an argument for it being a form of privilege.
@iris well said. Appreciated.
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@revoluciana I'm so glad it landed right. The topic has been weaponized to the point that I normally avoid talking about it for fear of immediately talking past the other person.
@iris totally understand. I mean, clearly I've caused some heat by bringing it up, so I definitely understand but I think that at least people like me aren't going to sort this out in our own minds without being able to discuss it, so I really appreciate hearing the perspective so I can learn, whether I adopt a particular stance or not from each person, having other perspectives is its own education.
And yes, you're words are very much appreciated and felt.
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@JoscelynTransient @revoluciana @faithisleaping An idea that might help is that privilege is often about the things you don't have to think about, not some sort of magic power. Male privilege is largely about the things men don't have to notice but women absolutely must. White privilege is largely about the things white people never see but people of color live in every day. And so on.
@ysabel @JoscelynTransient @revoluciana @faithisleaping
To piggy back: presenting a certain way in the world is both an individual AND a social act- always.
Privileges are given to us by others -without our permission -they are socially conferred. For ex: it is grown assed men who -choose- to catcall teenage girls, not you.That doesn't negate (huge) individual struggles with that assigned identity, but you still avoided hassles others endured
People choose to pass for similar reasons
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@revoluciana I think you've misunderstood with " I don't think we have statistics on that when it comes to closeted trans women".
In my hypothetical it's not relevant at all. Literally all you have is the name. Suffering in other areas of life doesn't change societal bias.
I think your point is also shifting a bit. Are you saying no trans women have ever had male privilege, or that you think some trans women haven't? Because those are very different claims.
@ellesaurus I apologize, I did misunderstand that first part.
And yes, I was intending to (shift?), I'm not trying to stand my ground, I'm trying to learn, and incorporate the perspective of each of the people that are helping educate me on this thread. And by bringing up the "male-passing" part, I'm exploring whether or not my original proposition is wrong that "no trans woman..." and incorporating and exploring the idea of, if I'm wrong about that, where is the possible intersection of what I see (and don't see), and what other people see (and don't see). So, I'm trying to explore different ground by saying that, other ground that someone else suggested.
I'm not sure if it fits. Because I'm wondering if I can conceive of what they called "male-passing privilege" vs. male privilege. I'm not sure I do, but maybe? I still don't see it as privilege, but at the same time, if other trans women are calling what they've experienced as male privilege, I don't want to simply talk over their experiences even if I don't see it. But I also know my own experience, and calling what I experienced as male privilege is not something I can currently swallow. I have all sorts of other intersectional privileges that I readily acknowledge, and I acknowledge there are many I am also unaware of and still experience, but I just can't make it work through the logic when it comes to applying specifically male privilege at least to my own experience, if nothing else.
And so idk. Maybe a third thing is happening that isn't quite the same thing, that makes our experiences and perspectives different. Or maybe I'm flat wrong. That's why I'm trying to understand better.
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@ellesaurus I apologize, I did misunderstand that first part.
And yes, I was intending to (shift?), I'm not trying to stand my ground, I'm trying to learn, and incorporate the perspective of each of the people that are helping educate me on this thread. And by bringing up the "male-passing" part, I'm exploring whether or not my original proposition is wrong that "no trans woman..." and incorporating and exploring the idea of, if I'm wrong about that, where is the possible intersection of what I see (and don't see), and what other people see (and don't see). So, I'm trying to explore different ground by saying that, other ground that someone else suggested.
I'm not sure if it fits. Because I'm wondering if I can conceive of what they called "male-passing privilege" vs. male privilege. I'm not sure I do, but maybe? I still don't see it as privilege, but at the same time, if other trans women are calling what they've experienced as male privilege, I don't want to simply talk over their experiences even if I don't see it. But I also know my own experience, and calling what I experienced as male privilege is not something I can currently swallow. I have all sorts of other intersectional privileges that I readily acknowledge, and I acknowledge there are many I am also unaware of and still experience, but I just can't make it work through the logic when it comes to applying specifically male privilege at least to my own experience, if nothing else.
And so idk. Maybe a third thing is happening that isn't quite the same thing, that makes our experiences and perspectives different. Or maybe I'm flat wrong. That's why I'm trying to understand better.
@revoluciana @ellesaurus I’ve been following this conversation over the past days and it seems like the big divide between you and your respondents is that you’re viewing privilege as some overarching thing bestowed upon one, while the replies are talking about privilege as a series of advantages given contextually. I don’t think there can be any doubt, as Elle’s example illustrates, that there can be particular situations in which a pre-transition trans woman could benefit from male privilege. I also don’t think that fact says anything about the overall privilege they do or do not experience.
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@ellesaurus I apologize, I did misunderstand that first part.
And yes, I was intending to (shift?), I'm not trying to stand my ground, I'm trying to learn, and incorporate the perspective of each of the people that are helping educate me on this thread. And by bringing up the "male-passing" part, I'm exploring whether or not my original proposition is wrong that "no trans woman..." and incorporating and exploring the idea of, if I'm wrong about that, where is the possible intersection of what I see (and don't see), and what other people see (and don't see). So, I'm trying to explore different ground by saying that, other ground that someone else suggested.
I'm not sure if it fits. Because I'm wondering if I can conceive of what they called "male-passing privilege" vs. male privilege. I'm not sure I do, but maybe? I still don't see it as privilege, but at the same time, if other trans women are calling what they've experienced as male privilege, I don't want to simply talk over their experiences even if I don't see it. But I also know my own experience, and calling what I experienced as male privilege is not something I can currently swallow. I have all sorts of other intersectional privileges that I readily acknowledge, and I acknowledge there are many I am also unaware of and still experience, but I just can't make it work through the logic when it comes to applying specifically male privilege at least to my own experience, if nothing else.
And so idk. Maybe a third thing is happening that isn't quite the same thing, that makes our experiences and perspectives different. Or maybe I'm flat wrong. That's why I'm trying to understand better.
@revoluciana Fair! I just wanted to clarify where you're coming from.
I personally don't really care about the label so much, and if viewing the label as "male passing" helps I think that works too and may avoid some baggage from weaponization.
I do think English is lacking a gender adjective in the way we might use for "male pilot" when we mean a pilot who is a man, causing male/female to be overloaded, and fail to encompass non-binary identities.
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@ysabel @JoscelynTransient @revoluciana @faithisleaping
To piggy back: presenting a certain way in the world is both an individual AND a social act- always.
Privileges are given to us by others -without our permission -they are socially conferred. For ex: it is grown assed men who -choose- to catcall teenage girls, not you.That doesn't negate (huge) individual struggles with that assigned identity, but you still avoided hassles others endured
People choose to pass for similar reasons
@CJPaloma @ysabel @JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
To be clear, I don't think passing is necessarily a choice, it often isn't. And I don't think I passed when pretending to be a man. In fact I know I didn't because people tell me now I didn't and they told me at the time, too. I mean, I primarily lived in the girls dorms in college despite not transitioning for another 14 years because the girls saw me as more or less one of them. I was dating someone there, but boyfriends were kicked out, but not me, and whenever I broached the topic with them, they looked at me with such a confused look, because obviously the moratorium on boys didn't extend to me. I wasn't invited to do mens things, I was *always* invited to do women's things when I was ever invited to do anything at all throughout my entire life, even if I was also gatekept at times, too. I was put in a box that varied in its proximity to womanhood, but was never in the box of manhood. Ever.
And maybe that's part of the reason I'm having such an issue with this. People did not really perceive me as a man before transition. Even at my most masc presenting, they knew something was off. So I wasn't treated as a man. At the absolute most, I was treated at times as someone who is supposed to work harder to become a man but wasn't one. I was very much treated as someone *not* man, even if I wasn't exactly treated as a woman.
Even if this resulted in privilege, and I'm really not sure it does, it doesn't seem that this is *male* privilege, but something else. Because despite the fact that society only consciously recognizes a false gender binary, individually and socially, people inherently have the ability pick up on at least some of us who don't fit that mold.
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@CJPaloma @ysabel @JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
To be clear, I don't think passing is necessarily a choice, it often isn't. And I don't think I passed when pretending to be a man. In fact I know I didn't because people tell me now I didn't and they told me at the time, too. I mean, I primarily lived in the girls dorms in college despite not transitioning for another 14 years because the girls saw me as more or less one of them. I was dating someone there, but boyfriends were kicked out, but not me, and whenever I broached the topic with them, they looked at me with such a confused look, because obviously the moratorium on boys didn't extend to me. I wasn't invited to do mens things, I was *always* invited to do women's things when I was ever invited to do anything at all throughout my entire life, even if I was also gatekept at times, too. I was put in a box that varied in its proximity to womanhood, but was never in the box of manhood. Ever.
And maybe that's part of the reason I'm having such an issue with this. People did not really perceive me as a man before transition. Even at my most masc presenting, they knew something was off. So I wasn't treated as a man. At the absolute most, I was treated at times as someone who is supposed to work harder to become a man but wasn't one. I was very much treated as someone *not* man, even if I wasn't exactly treated as a woman.
Even if this resulted in privilege, and I'm really not sure it does, it doesn't seem that this is *male* privilege, but something else. Because despite the fact that society only consciously recognizes a false gender binary, individually and socially, people inherently have the ability pick up on at least some of us who don't fit that mold.
@revoluciana @ysabel @JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping Sure, and passing also has a long and fascinating history -not related to gender identity- which is more what I was thinking of. I was thinking much more in terms of why POC chose to pass for white: to -avoid- hassle/abuse.
I think most folks generally think of that as -avoiding discrimination- which it is, but it seems to me, a huge amount of "being privileged" does amount to "the avoidance of being subjected to certain downsides"
