If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right?
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@DavidM_yeg that's inherently my point. This is helpful.
You're afforded these things because of the way society and systems reward you simply because of who you are.
Even if a trans woman *was* afforded these things before coming out (we're often not afforded these things), it's not afforded because of who she is, but because of who she was punished into pretending to be. In other words, she had to sacrifice in order to get those things. She had to sacrifice her entire self through torture and pain in order to have them. That doesn't feel like privilege when it's paid for through sacrifice.
“You're afforded these things because of the way society and systems reward you simply because of who you are.”
I don’t think that’s quite true… I have privilege because of who the system has *decided* who I am, in the moment. That’s quite different, bc my internal experience is … irrelevant. This is part of how these systems are oppressive; by reducing people to categories and objects. But meanwhile privilege is real regardless of my feelings or experience of it.
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If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right? It can't possibly be? I feel like we've already established this. Am I wrong?
@revoluciana Imagine a tech job posting where you had to bet on who would get an interview, just based on their resume.
There are two resumes, equally qualified, but the names on the resumes are Mark and Linda.
Who are you placing your money on to get that interview? Because statistically it's Mark.
And it doesn't matter if Mark is actually a trans woman who hasn't transitioned yet, because that is entirely irrelevant to whether Mark had an advantaged position for the job over Linda.
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She accesses male only *privileges* but not in a way I would call "male privilege" in the general sense.
@dlakelan I appreciate this phrasing
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@revoluciana @faithisleaping don’t worry, i am getting the sense that it’s more being caught in that argument and all the feels it brought up, rather than an academic discussion. And that’s understandable- having someone invalidate you and your experience hurts, and is endlessly frustrating.
Honestly, I’d suggest more writing about how the way this person and others use these ideas makes you feel. Get out those feelings and express them, because that seems to be what’s really on your mind, right? Rather than actually digging into the social science of this stuff. Then maybe after that, you can come back to what theory and research actually say about these things more broadly and with nuance in trying to improve understanding?
I did try to articulate at least a little that the way TERFs and such conceptualize it is the problem, and they are the one’s using this framing. And in an argument about this, rather than arguing about how to theorize male privilege, I would say change the field of discussion and don’t fight the battle they’re trying to make you fight. I keep trying to write out examples, but it’s all coming out wrong…not having context makes it really hard to reframe
@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
Totally understand this. The only thing was that I wasn't trying to fight last night, or today for that matter, but I also know people perceive me as combative when I discuss things, and I think that's mostly related to my autism and my methods of inquiry and curiosity. So, while I was appreciating all the input and giving counterpoints on here to show my understanding (and what I'm not understanding), I think people perceive that as fighting.
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@revoluciana @faithisleaping don’t worry, i am getting the sense that it’s more being caught in that argument and all the feels it brought up, rather than an academic discussion. And that’s understandable- having someone invalidate you and your experience hurts, and is endlessly frustrating.
Honestly, I’d suggest more writing about how the way this person and others use these ideas makes you feel. Get out those feelings and express them, because that seems to be what’s really on your mind, right? Rather than actually digging into the social science of this stuff. Then maybe after that, you can come back to what theory and research actually say about these things more broadly and with nuance in trying to improve understanding?
I did try to articulate at least a little that the way TERFs and such conceptualize it is the problem, and they are the one’s using this framing. And in an argument about this, rather than arguing about how to theorize male privilege, I would say change the field of discussion and don’t fight the battle they’re trying to make you fight. I keep trying to write out examples, but it’s all coming out wrong…not having context makes it really hard to reframe
@JoscelynTransient @revoluciana @faithisleaping An idea that might help is that privilege is often about the things you don't have to think about, not some sort of magic power. Male privilege is largely about the things men don't have to notice but women absolutely must. White privilege is largely about the things white people never see but people of color live in every day. And so on.
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Here's what I'm getting at.
Trans women don't experience male privilege before coming out. It's not a privilege if you have to sacrifice everything you are in order to obtain it. And in the case of trans women, we don't even sacrifice who we are in order to obtain male privilege, we do it just to survive. I'm having such a difficult time believing it's privilege when it's bought and paid for, especially at such a high price.
@revoluciana oof, so, I have complicated thoughts on this. Bear with me.
When trans women in technical positions suddenly find themselves being underestimated and undermined by their colleagues who previously viewed them as competent, that is some form of privilege lost, right?
But it's still worth it, so it's not so cut-and-dried as being a single, unidirectional transaction. This is where I think the concept of privilege fails us, or at least doesn't permit the necessary nuance.
If we talk about protection, we can talk about appearing male as being a form of protection. It may not be healthy or wise or right, but there is some reason people might choose it anyway, and that reason can be considered a privilege, in that it's not automatic and not everyone can opt in at the drop of a hat. There are people who would choose to temporarily present as male when walking down a dark alley, but can't. They lack that option.
But again, that doesn't mean it's right or worth it or comes without repercussions. It just means it's an option -- or even something that happens without their opting in -- that some people have and some don't. The way "male privilege" is usually discussed is implicitly the much more narrow case where it's consensual and without repercussions, and that's where people end up talking at cross-purposes while using ostensibly the same language.
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Do Bacha Posh have male privilege?
Bacha Posh are Afghan girls who are *forced* to act and "live as" boys for the sake of her family, to act as an escort for the women in her family, to access education, to keep her family from starving, and other variety of reasons.
If she is forced to do this against her will in order to access the privilege only given to men, or even for survival, then does that automatically mean she has male privilege?
In certain situations she has access to male privilege but she doesn't "have" it. It is on loan to her due to specific circumstances.
It's like they are saying that someone who inhales second hand pot smoke at a rock concert (I am old) is a drug user.
Edit to add that I see that I aligned with @dlakelan on the term "access".
GMTA/FSD! -
In certain situations she has access to male privilege but she doesn't "have" it. It is on loan to her due to specific circumstances.
It's like they are saying that someone who inhales second hand pot smoke at a rock concert (I am old) is a drug user.
Edit to add that I see that I aligned with @dlakelan on the term "access".
GMTA/FSD!The Bacha Posh example reminds me of something that I read about a small demographic, I think it was within Albania. If a family has only daughters, it is acceptable if the oldest daughter (and only the oldest IIRC) who can take on the role of a son..The way that I remember it is that they had to consent to doing the new role. But once that person has accepted the new role, he was treated as a son/boy/man and would then IMO have male privilege in the community.
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@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
Totally understand this. The only thing was that I wasn't trying to fight last night, or today for that matter, but I also know people perceive me as combative when I discuss things, and I think that's mostly related to my autism and my methods of inquiry and curiosity. So, while I was appreciating all the input and giving counterpoints on here to show my understanding (and what I'm not understanding), I think people perceive that as fighting.
@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
And, don't feel the need to engage with this if you don't feel like it. Again, it's not meant as combative, just that this is where my mind is at:
It's just that, I also don't think I should have to understand something better before I post about it, you know? Especially so I can understand it through discussion on here, because where else am I supposed to go? The maybe 3 books that exist on this topic that are all outdated and likely problematic? Reddit? I just feel like we should be able to post about these things and discuss them or else I'm just going to sit here ignorant indefinitely.
Because also what I do know is my own experience, that I was *not* "male socialized." There's never even a point in my life I ever actually thought I was a boy, I always knew I was performing a role, and I didn't even pass that well pretending to be a boy, so these so-called privileges people are discussing are largely foreign to me, withheld, and only provided if I paid a price, if ever. And any of the privileges that I *might* have experienced along the way were bought with blood, tears, and my soul. I just don't understand a concept of privilege that requires paying such a high price for it against my will, and I struggle to connect with this. How is that considered privilege?
Isn't the whole point of the concept of privilege the fact that you are granted them without extra hurdles and burdens to access them? That it's not that a marginalized person can't access them, but that it's so much more difficult or burdensome, that there are more obstacles to access them. That someone privileged is just given them because of a more or less inherent attribute (whiteness? neurotypical experience? heteronormativity?), because maleness is not something inherent to me. If I was granted something, it wasn't granted to me because of my inherent nature, it was something bought through the violence that made me have to perform something I'm not.
It wouldn't be such a big deal to me if it was just about oppression olympics, but the fact that this is how people form a basis of implying that I am inherently a man because of privilege and socialization, but it's not just that, it's that it's wrong. I'm not a man. And I wasn't "socialized as" one, and I just can't picture any particular benefits as coming to me because of my "maleness" because I'm not male. They came because of the option between performance or violence. Is that truly privilege?
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@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
And, don't feel the need to engage with this if you don't feel like it. Again, it's not meant as combative, just that this is where my mind is at:
It's just that, I also don't think I should have to understand something better before I post about it, you know? Especially so I can understand it through discussion on here, because where else am I supposed to go? The maybe 3 books that exist on this topic that are all outdated and likely problematic? Reddit? I just feel like we should be able to post about these things and discuss them or else I'm just going to sit here ignorant indefinitely.
Because also what I do know is my own experience, that I was *not* "male socialized." There's never even a point in my life I ever actually thought I was a boy, I always knew I was performing a role, and I didn't even pass that well pretending to be a boy, so these so-called privileges people are discussing are largely foreign to me, withheld, and only provided if I paid a price, if ever. And any of the privileges that I *might* have experienced along the way were bought with blood, tears, and my soul. I just don't understand a concept of privilege that requires paying such a high price for it against my will, and I struggle to connect with this. How is that considered privilege?
Isn't the whole point of the concept of privilege the fact that you are granted them without extra hurdles and burdens to access them? That it's not that a marginalized person can't access them, but that it's so much more difficult or burdensome, that there are more obstacles to access them. That someone privileged is just given them because of a more or less inherent attribute (whiteness? neurotypical experience? heteronormativity?), because maleness is not something inherent to me. If I was granted something, it wasn't granted to me because of my inherent nature, it was something bought through the violence that made me have to perform something I'm not.
It wouldn't be such a big deal to me if it was just about oppression olympics, but the fact that this is how people form a basis of implying that I am inherently a man because of privilege and socialization, but it's not just that, it's that it's wrong. I'm not a man. And I wasn't "socialized as" one, and I just can't picture any particular benefits as coming to me because of my "maleness" because I'm not male. They came because of the option between performance or violence. Is that truly privilege?
@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
Just sharing this because I have so much respect for you Joscelyn. Maybe you can help explain what I don't see, or maybe it's just that I'm not being understood, either way I want to understand better.
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“You're afforded these things because of the way society and systems reward you simply because of who you are.”
I don’t think that’s quite true… I have privilege because of who the system has *decided* who I am, in the moment. That’s quite different, bc my internal experience is … irrelevant. This is part of how these systems are oppressive; by reducing people to categories and objects. But meanwhile privilege is real regardless of my feelings or experience of it.
@DavidM_yeg thank you, I'll think on this. Appreciated.
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@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
Just sharing this because I have so much respect for you Joscelyn. Maybe you can help explain what I don't see, or maybe it's just that I'm not being understood, either way I want to understand better.
@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
and yes. Obviously the heat of the moment made it a *lot* more important
, but it's not like this isn't something we don't run into allllll the time. But yeah. It's already tomorrow and I'm still fired up about it lol -
@revoluciana Imagine a tech job posting where you had to bet on who would get an interview, just based on their resume.
There are two resumes, equally qualified, but the names on the resumes are Mark and Linda.
Who are you placing your money on to get that interview? Because statistically it's Mark.
And it doesn't matter if Mark is actually a trans woman who hasn't transitioned yet, because that is entirely irrelevant to whether Mark had an advantaged position for the job over Linda.
@ellesaurus hmm. I appreciate what you're saying, and on the surface, I get it, but this doesn't click for me the way that I think it's intended.
First, I don't think we have statistics on that when it comes to closeted trans women, so this lumps trans women in with men, which I don't think is fair, and even if we did, I'm not sure it accounts for other correlary and possibly causitive factors, (prevelance of neurodivergence, few career options open to trans women, motivating benefits like money/insurance for surgery, etc.) especially as I don't know a ton about the tech field.
But I more significantly, I know that because of my perceived queerness, I don't think I would have made the bet on myself if it was Linda vs my pre-transition self. People perceived my queerness, my femininity, and I was punished or penalized for it, which includes not being treated as a typical "man" in these sorts of scenarios. I wasn't only treated as less than man, but often less than woman.
Someone suggested the idea of male-passing privilege as opposed to simply male privilege. I'm not sure how I feel about this as I haven't fully digested it, but I think that in your scenario I can definitely see it fitting better. Because I never passed that well pretending to be a man, and I think that passing can absolutely make a big difference when it comes to accessing privilege, if that's the lens we use.
I really appreciate your input. Here and other times that you've helped enlighten me or lead me to water. Thank you for this.
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@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
and yes. Obviously the heat of the moment made it a *lot* more important
, but it's not like this isn't something we don't run into allllll the time. But yeah. It's already tomorrow and I'm still fired up about it lol@revoluciana @faithisleaping that’s more what I’m seeing, and why I suggested actually focusing on parsing that and rooting it in what these claims mean for you - that’s where you have something that is driving you right now and needs expressing and reflection. That just looks like getting more specific and such, rather than debating in the general.
And don’t worry, we are friends and I know you, I’m not offended or angry or anything either. Just in a mental fatigue space where debating stuff is challenging….and like, I’m also not entirely disagreeing with you if you look at the examples, just trying to apply a different framing, because you’re not wrong about what the original framing is getting wrong.
And i hope nothing I said is meant to imply you shouldn’t be discussing this or that you have to have studied it deeply or something. I just was struggling to articulate specifics in my mental fatigue. Last week of TMS…and I just want to be sleepy sloth girl
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@DavidM_yeg thank you, I'll think on this. Appreciated.
Just to be clear: thinking about my childhood as a fairly mundane cis guy in the 70/80s, I can’t begin to imagine what that experience would have been like for a trans person who wouldn’t fit even to the limited extent that I did, I really sorry/saddened that you experienced that.
If this thread comes out of someone else suggesting that somehow being granted privilege in any way balances or diminishes what you experienced, they are spewing a giant pile of shit.
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@revoluciana oof, so, I have complicated thoughts on this. Bear with me.
When trans women in technical positions suddenly find themselves being underestimated and undermined by their colleagues who previously viewed them as competent, that is some form of privilege lost, right?
But it's still worth it, so it's not so cut-and-dried as being a single, unidirectional transaction. This is where I think the concept of privilege fails us, or at least doesn't permit the necessary nuance.
If we talk about protection, we can talk about appearing male as being a form of protection. It may not be healthy or wise or right, but there is some reason people might choose it anyway, and that reason can be considered a privilege, in that it's not automatic and not everyone can opt in at the drop of a hat. There are people who would choose to temporarily present as male when walking down a dark alley, but can't. They lack that option.
But again, that doesn't mean it's right or worth it or comes without repercussions. It just means it's an option -- or even something that happens without their opting in -- that some people have and some don't. The way "male privilege" is usually discussed is implicitly the much more narrow case where it's consensual and without repercussions, and that's where people end up talking at cross-purposes while using ostensibly the same language.
@revoluciana I think it's also worth considering that many forms of male privilege are bought and paid for -- at lower but nonzero price. At worst, people degrade and contort themselves to fit in a certain image because it's socially advantageous. The effeminate gay son of a "man's man" can tell horror stories of how he's forced into an image of manhood very different from how he sees himself. Is that whole experience, in context, a reflection of privilege relative to others? Hell no. Is it a reflection of how a certain type of masculinity comes with privileges, compared to the type he's comfortable with? Yes. A gay man suffering from being boxed into traditional masculinity is experiencing male privilege from one of the angles we don't normally ascribe to the term.
It's being weaponized against him, as it is against trans women. He can experience some ghost of acceptance or power if he complies, and he could even turn that against someone else if he chose -- all those lawmakers who vilify and criminalize drag and end up being drag queens themselves? that right there. People wouldn't be forced into any of this if it weren't linked somehow to power. It's not remotely the same thing as the unconditional privilege of being born into wealth or high social standing, but it's a form of social currency. I think the fact that people pursue it as a matter of survival is an argument for it being a form of privilege.
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@revoluciana oof, so, I have complicated thoughts on this. Bear with me.
When trans women in technical positions suddenly find themselves being underestimated and undermined by their colleagues who previously viewed them as competent, that is some form of privilege lost, right?
But it's still worth it, so it's not so cut-and-dried as being a single, unidirectional transaction. This is where I think the concept of privilege fails us, or at least doesn't permit the necessary nuance.
If we talk about protection, we can talk about appearing male as being a form of protection. It may not be healthy or wise or right, but there is some reason people might choose it anyway, and that reason can be considered a privilege, in that it's not automatic and not everyone can opt in at the drop of a hat. There are people who would choose to temporarily present as male when walking down a dark alley, but can't. They lack that option.
But again, that doesn't mean it's right or worth it or comes without repercussions. It just means it's an option -- or even something that happens without their opting in -- that some people have and some don't. The way "male privilege" is usually discussed is implicitly the much more narrow case where it's consensual and without repercussions, and that's where people end up talking at cross-purposes while using ostensibly the same language.
@iris I really appreciate this take. And I think your phrasing puts it best when you say "This is where I think the concept of privilege fails us..." Like. I understand and acknowledge that *something* happens that many perceive simplistically as privilege, but yeah, it just feels like the idea of it also simplistically being framed as "male privilege" is the wrong lens, and worse, it feels like a harmful lens when applied to trans women and transfem people.
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@iris I really appreciate this take. And I think your phrasing puts it best when you say "This is where I think the concept of privilege fails us..." Like. I understand and acknowledge that *something* happens that many perceive simplistically as privilege, but yeah, it just feels like the idea of it also simplistically being framed as "male privilege" is the wrong lens, and worse, it feels like a harmful lens when applied to trans women and transfem people.
@revoluciana I'm so glad it landed right. The topic has been weaponized to the point that I normally avoid talking about it for fear of immediately talking past the other person.
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The Bacha Posh example reminds me of something that I read about a small demographic, I think it was within Albania. If a family has only daughters, it is acceptable if the oldest daughter (and only the oldest IIRC) who can take on the role of a son..The way that I remember it is that they had to consent to doing the new role. But once that person has accepted the new role, he was treated as a son/boy/man and would then IMO have male privilege in the community.
@RuthODay2 @dlakelan I've spent quite a bit of time working in Kosovo (greater Albania), and unless this is an older thing, I don't think it's been a thing there for a long time if ever, but I could be mistaken. But I absolutely believe it's a thing *somewhere* especially given the Bacha Posh example that I only became aware of through my Afghan work.
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@ellesaurus hmm. I appreciate what you're saying, and on the surface, I get it, but this doesn't click for me the way that I think it's intended.
First, I don't think we have statistics on that when it comes to closeted trans women, so this lumps trans women in with men, which I don't think is fair, and even if we did, I'm not sure it accounts for other correlary and possibly causitive factors, (prevelance of neurodivergence, few career options open to trans women, motivating benefits like money/insurance for surgery, etc.) especially as I don't know a ton about the tech field.
But I more significantly, I know that because of my perceived queerness, I don't think I would have made the bet on myself if it was Linda vs my pre-transition self. People perceived my queerness, my femininity, and I was punished or penalized for it, which includes not being treated as a typical "man" in these sorts of scenarios. I wasn't only treated as less than man, but often less than woman.
Someone suggested the idea of male-passing privilege as opposed to simply male privilege. I'm not sure how I feel about this as I haven't fully digested it, but I think that in your scenario I can definitely see it fitting better. Because I never passed that well pretending to be a man, and I think that passing can absolutely make a big difference when it comes to accessing privilege, if that's the lens we use.
I really appreciate your input. Here and other times that you've helped enlighten me or lead me to water. Thank you for this.
@revoluciana I think you've misunderstood with " I don't think we have statistics on that when it comes to closeted trans women".
In my hypothetical it's not relevant at all. Literally all you have is the name. Suffering in other areas of life doesn't change societal bias.
I think your point is also shifting a bit. Are you saying no trans women have ever had male privilege, or that you think some trans women haven't? Because those are very different claims.
