If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right?
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@natasha (to be clear, none of what I have been saying is meant as oppositional to the experience of trans men or to invalidate their experiences in any way)
To your point, regardless of enjoyment, you kind of make my own point: it was made easier by *presenting* male. It's only through the sacrifice of self that made it possible. These things aren't afforded to trans women because of who they are, but because of the pain and punishment they have endured in order to survive. How can it be privilege if it's paid for through sacrifice of self?
Which is not to say that other forms of intersectional privilege don't exist. A white trans woman still has white privilege that's afforded to her because of her whiteness.
But a trans woman has male privilege because of what? Her male-ness? That doesn't sit right.
If a person of color has to code switch to get work among white people, I have a hard time believing that they're experiencing white privilege. They're not white-- they're being forced to perform whiteness.
Likewise, trans women who perform the part of a man for survival are not experiencing male privilege. They're not male-- they're performing maleness.
@revoluciana I see your point and I think I agree.
Another thing that proves the point is that trans persons are ready to give up on their socially acquired priviledges to be themselves.
As I use to say - I'd never take an hypotetetic pill that could transform me in a cis men, that could help me have all the cis priviledges. It's not about privileges.
And thanks for this discussion, I liked to be a part of it
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@Tattie
> They also had privileges that I, a closeted trans woman, didn't.I'm curious, can you give an example?
@low Not sure if it's the same as @Tattie had in her mind, but being able to form "normal" friendship with women would immediately come to my mind and not landing in such an awkward social spot for decades.
@faithisleaping @revoluciana -
@Tattie
> They also had privileges that I, a closeted trans woman, didn't.I'm curious, can you give an example?
@low ok, an example: I was very much a slob; untidy and poorly dressed. It wasn't a choice, but an outcome of my deep shame at how I was going thru life.
This wasn't conducive to a good social or romantic life.
@faithisleaping @revoluciana -
@low Not sure if it's the same as @Tattie had in her mind, but being able to form "normal" friendship with women would immediately come to my mind and not landing in such an awkward social spot for decades.
@faithisleaping @revoluciana@doppelgrau thank you @Tattie and @doppelgrau for your answers.
I think I need to rethink the privileges topic.
For me it was always "you look like/are i.e. white male => you have certain privileges", even if they come with downsides.Which is, at least how I understand it, what
@faithisleaping has written. -
@low ok, an example: I was very much a slob; untidy and poorly dressed. It wasn't a choice, but an outcome of my deep shame at how I was going thru life.
This wasn't conducive to a good social or romantic life.
@faithisleaping @revoluciana@Tattie eh, I wanted to answer here instead of there: https://lgbtqia.space/@low/116526654882298885
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@low ok, an example: I was very much a slob; untidy and poorly dressed. It wasn't a choice, but an outcome of my deep shame at how I was going thru life.
This wasn't conducive to a good social or romantic life.
@faithisleaping @revoluciana@Tattie
Quite common sympthom I'd say (yes I surrender, my most horrible lazy men clothes were the norm) and I dress a lot better today. -
@doppelgrau thank you @Tattie and @doppelgrau for your answers.
I think I need to rethink the privileges topic.
For me it was always "you look like/are i.e. white male => you have certain privileges", even if they come with downsides.Which is, at least how I understand it, what
@faithisleaping has written.@low yeah, quite a large chunk of what is written on privilege takes a framing of either comparing white men to white women, or white men to black men.
There's a huge amount of unexplored territory wrt the experiences of other minorities, and intersectional identities.
@doppelgrau @faithisleaping @revoluciana -
If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right? It can't possibly be? I feel like we've already established this. Am I wrong?
@revoluciana Addressing the question as phrased: if only some people are granted the ability to do that thing, then being able to do it is a privilege, Whether you do it is a separate issue.
As was pointed out elsewhere in the replies, privilege is something given to you (or not), not something you do.
Even if it's the result of something you do, that privilege is a separate thing (and a different kind of thing) from those actions.Addressing the actual question: you're trying to reduce at least two different things into a single thing.
Did I have male privilege? Absolutely.
Did that life also damage me so badly that I may never again be able to work a job like that? Also yes.
These things aren't fungible, nor do they cancel out. They're both true.That privilege was conferred on me as a function of being perceived as a white man by those around me. It was not something I requested, or something I did. I learned to maintain that position by performing some approximation of the right kind of masculinity, sure - and now I'm trying to recover from what that did to me, on top of the rest.
Coming back to the original question, let me throw you a related question: is it morally right to deceive people (possibly including yourself) in the course of obtaining a privilege that's necessary for survival?
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If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right? It can't possibly be? I feel like we've already established this. Am I wrong?
@revoluciana I will be honest I didn't read all the replies (or even most of them there are a lot) and it is a complex topic but there are protections that come with just being born male. You are less likely to get certain actions against you and even your voice carries more weight. That would be considered privileges.
Then we have the aspects of we can't even be ourselves, we live in the deepest pits of despair hating everything about ourselves when to some we have the winning lottery ticket.
This is a major problem of our world and lack of equality. People don't see that the "winning" ticket is actually one that wins us depression, self hatred and so much wrong with ourselves because it prevents us being happy. So we have the wrong kind of privilege. The privilege of power not the privilege of happiness which you can easily argue is not really privilege. Just like so many men are crushed by the weight of the world because they are men.
Man or woman, boy or girl, both are a blessing and a curse but the biggest curse is not matching the one you were assigned. Everyone is hurt by the system but I do think there is protection and thus privilege in being born a certain way. You are safer, you have more power as a default and you don't have to fight as much but even in that system if you are a cis male it comes with great cost. You have to be strong, you can't show emotions as much (except anger which is a major problem), you can't talk about your feelings, you can't truly build a support network. You have all the strengths and weaknesses even if you won the dice role.
There is even privilege in being straight instead of gay, straight instead of ace, straight instead of anything else. The lessening of burdens. Is that not what privilege is?
If I was born in a very rich family I would be seen as highly privileged I might never have to work in my life and have a life of luxury, is that not privilege? But even in that I could be isolated, have no one I could truly trust, have people that would happily murder me for the money I carry. So is it not also a curse too?
Privilege is a vague concept. There are benefits to being born in certain ways or with certain things but that doesn't mean it is right for you. A poor farmer who knows nothing can be happier and more fulfilled than someone with the world at their finger tips. They have the privilege of being able to have happiness they can hold born of ignorance and yet also simplicity. They don't have to worry about the wider world.
I guess yes, there is privilege, and there is burden from it too. Is it privilege if the negatives outweight the positives? That's the idea here. I think in some cases someone with vasts amount of money is always going to be privileged because they can throw resources at their problems even if their problems are moeny itself. Does a trans woman have male privilege before coming out? I could easily argue yes but I could also see the argument for no.
What price turns privilege into surival? What turns privilege into a curse. Going by my teenage years I would argue it kepts me safe in ways but also broke me. I wouldn't say I felt the privilege but just interactions went better because of it. I gained enough bonuses even if it was what was destroying me.
It isn't some scale that can be balanced. It isn't some grand equation. Privilege is the wrong word here because there is more to it than what we gain and at what price but yes, unfortunately we gained benefits even if we were basically "blessed with suck"...
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@revoluciana Addressing the question as phrased: if only some people are granted the ability to do that thing, then being able to do it is a privilege, Whether you do it is a separate issue.
As was pointed out elsewhere in the replies, privilege is something given to you (or not), not something you do.
Even if it's the result of something you do, that privilege is a separate thing (and a different kind of thing) from those actions.Addressing the actual question: you're trying to reduce at least two different things into a single thing.
Did I have male privilege? Absolutely.
Did that life also damage me so badly that I may never again be able to work a job like that? Also yes.
These things aren't fungible, nor do they cancel out. They're both true.That privilege was conferred on me as a function of being perceived as a white man by those around me. It was not something I requested, or something I did. I learned to maintain that position by performing some approximation of the right kind of masculinity, sure - and now I'm trying to recover from what that did to me, on top of the rest.
Coming back to the original question, let me throw you a related question: is it morally right to deceive people (possibly including yourself) in the course of obtaining a privilege that's necessary for survival?
@revoluciana Something about the way you phrased this kept tugging at my mind.
Are you feeling guilt over it, and looking for absolution? IMO, it's an Original Sin deal: we didn't ask for it, and we weren't given a choice.
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@revoluciana i just feel like it’s the final word: do people go around asking gay people how great all that straight passing privilege was?
@bri7 I feel the same way. And yet people in this thread are telling me that's somehow different and I still only see the same as you see here.
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I'm going to go to sleep now and mull over this some more tomorrow.
Thank you to everyone trying to help me see what I don't see and/or engaging with what I do see.
For me, it is a lot of big or small things.
All grouped under "male privilege".Nobody told me to not do science studies.
My salary was a in-between, bad for a man, good for a woman. (Now it is woman-range, even when I'm not out at work).
I was sexually assaulted. But only once ?
When I'm at ease, I still talk too much, cutting other women more than they cut me.
So, I don't see all that as a "big single package".
BUT nearly everytime somebody tell me about my supposed "male privilege", it is oppressive AND it is false according to my personnal life..
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@revoluciana @faithisleaping there is actually a really nuanced exploration of this topic I’ve wanted to do, but been wary to put in public writing because of how heated people get around this, and how quickly people assume the worst about a person allowing for any room to talk about “male socialization” or “male privilege” in trans women’s lives.
If I’m honest about myself, there are ways I am very confident male privilege and being “socialized male” shaped me and my life in important ways, some mostly beneficial (though some deeply costly). But it also didn’t operate the way that many people probably assume, and it often wasn’t a cost/benefit proposition, but rather a thing that shapes behavior and life patterns.
Anyway, I should go to bed rather than disk horsing. Sorry for probably being messy and careless with some words here@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
You're wonderful (as are you, too Faith). All of what I'm saying is in good faith (no pun intended), and I know yours is, too.
I can see how it would seem like I'm concerned with oppression olympics given the topic, but I assure you that's not my point of concern. My point of concern, oddly enough since you brought it up, is similar to the "male socialization" issue.
The arguments that we have/had male privilege and "male socialization" (which I also am not a proponent of this view), is that these are the basis of the same points that are used by TERFs to deny us our womanhood, to deny us our spaces. It's the same reason why a queer organization won't hire trans women and only hire trans mascs and other AFAB queer people.
These same arguments are all of the reasons why even in so many queer spaces, let alone in the wider world, we are separated and blocked.
Like, it's not about oppression olympics, but again, I can see why it would look that way. It's the practical matter of using the language of original sin in order to lord over us that we'll never be real women (and perhaps more significantly, that we will always be men) because of our privilege and so-called socialization.
I think Julia Serrano explains so many of the effects better in the why are we denied the closet piece: https://juliaserano.medium.com/why-are-amab-trans-people-denied-the-closet-7fd5c740ce30
This is more to the heart of my point.
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@revoluciana Is calling it "male passing privilege" better? I passed as a guy for a long time. Long enough and well enough that I still struggle with imposter syndrome as a trans woman.
Because I passed, I didn't get bullied in high school, was able to pursue a male-coded career without harassment, and live a relatively comfortable life. I think the extent of these things are because I have "male-passing privilege".
Is there a price? Oh yes. But I see it as separate from the benefits.
@DuchessOfSnork ill think on that. My gut tells me it's still a problem, but I do think there's something there for me to consider, especially as I did not pass well and it absolutely had consequences.
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@revoluciana I see your point and I think I agree.
Another thing that proves the point is that trans persons are ready to give up on their socially acquired priviledges to be themselves.
As I use to say - I'd never take an hypotetetic pill that could transform me in a cis men, that could help me have all the cis priviledges. It's not about privileges.
And thanks for this discussion, I liked to be a part of it
@natasha thank you! I appreciate the discussion, too. I'm worried I'm coming off as combative to some, but I'm truly trying to explore this in good faith. Thank you for this!
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@revoluciana Something about the way you phrased this kept tugging at my mind.
Are you feeling guilt over it, and looking for absolution? IMO, it's an Original Sin deal: we didn't ask for it, and we weren't given a choice.
@KatS Not trying to ignore the rest of what you wrote, but trying to juggle at the moment. The reason it's of concern to me isn't about guilt, but yes, it is about the same original sin that TERFs use to deny us our humanity and our womanhood. The idea that we will always be men because of our male privilege and so-called male socialization. It has practical effects even in queer spaces because we're often not treated not for who we are, but for our perceived original sin.
Julia Serrano has a piece that touches on much of this and the effects:
https://juliaserano.medium.com/why-are-amab-trans-people-denied-the-closet-7fd5c740ce30 -
If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right? It can't possibly be? I feel like we've already established this. Am I wrong?
@revoluciana@chaosfem.tw Privilege is a hugely nuanced thing to discuss. Pre coming out, I was definitely privileged by being recognized as typical man. When I said something, it was definitely heard; it was assumed I had certain competences. But since I was not a cis man, even if I did not know, keeping up that appearance came at a price that for a long time I wasn't even aware I was paying.
That applies to late diagnosis of neurodivergence, as well, in the form of neurodivergent burnout, when at some point your nervous system simply breaks down under the strain of an internalized mask that you made at the cost of knowing who you are, what you are, and your needs.
It even applies to discovering asexuality - I am not repulsed, but I do not feel any of the things that are assumed to come with sex. So while I can perform the rituals of allosexuality, there was always the sneaking feeling that something was deeply wrong, which did ruin at least one relationship for me.
Being assumed to be part of a privileged group while not being part of that group is ownership of a white elephant: you enjoy the standing that comes with it, but there's a good chance that the upkeep will ruin you sooner or later.
That comes on top of "having privilege" not meaning "being absolutely impervious to certain detriments". Being listened to doesn't mean not being dismissed, just someone taking a moment to dismiss you explicitely. Being seen as functional doesn't mean you are. Being able to have a normal sex life doesn't mean it is.
In the same vein, discrimination doesn't mean someone being explicitely, personally awful to you - your doctor can be personally the most awesome person to you and move mountains, but if they simply don't know aspects of trans specific healthcare because they are not studied, the transphobia in their healthcare is still evident. Inability to spot melanoma in a black person doesn't mean the doctor is racist, but the system that didn't teach them the difference from presentation in white skin is. -
@natasha thank you! I appreciate the discussion, too. I'm worried I'm coming off as combative to some, but I'm truly trying to explore this in good faith. Thank you for this!
@revoluciana there's nothing wrong in being combative. If you want of course.
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@revoluciana@chaosfem.tw Privilege is a hugely nuanced thing to discuss. Pre coming out, I was definitely privileged by being recognized as typical man. When I said something, it was definitely heard; it was assumed I had certain competences. But since I was not a cis man, even if I did not know, keeping up that appearance came at a price that for a long time I wasn't even aware I was paying.
That applies to late diagnosis of neurodivergence, as well, in the form of neurodivergent burnout, when at some point your nervous system simply breaks down under the strain of an internalized mask that you made at the cost of knowing who you are, what you are, and your needs.
It even applies to discovering asexuality - I am not repulsed, but I do not feel any of the things that are assumed to come with sex. So while I can perform the rituals of allosexuality, there was always the sneaking feeling that something was deeply wrong, which did ruin at least one relationship for me.
Being assumed to be part of a privileged group while not being part of that group is ownership of a white elephant: you enjoy the standing that comes with it, but there's a good chance that the upkeep will ruin you sooner or later.
That comes on top of "having privilege" not meaning "being absolutely impervious to certain detriments". Being listened to doesn't mean not being dismissed, just someone taking a moment to dismiss you explicitely. Being seen as functional doesn't mean you are. Being able to have a normal sex life doesn't mean it is.
In the same vein, discrimination doesn't mean someone being explicitely, personally awful to you - your doctor can be personally the most awesome person to you and move mountains, but if they simply don't know aspects of trans specific healthcare because they are not studied, the transphobia in their healthcare is still evident. Inability to spot melanoma in a black person doesn't mean the doctor is racist, but the system that didn't teach them the difference from presentation in white skin is.@revoluciana@chaosfem.tw What I'm getting at is, systems behave differently from individuals. Being privileged doesn't translate cleanly to personal advantages.
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I know people are trying to explain something to me with nuance, and I'm truly not trying to be a jerk, but all I keep hearing is that the violence we experience as trans women is actually privilege. But not just any privilege, but specifically male privilege. Because we are men. Or at least because people think we are. Which is its own privilege. And we should be so privileged to live through this violence in order to get *benefits* that make our lives easier (at this point we disregard the violence).
I'm just not buying it. Having the effects of our literal torture, self sacrifice, and violence called privilege is just not making its way to me.
@revoluciana
it’s both, all of the abovelike i get what you mean, and in particular it’s a tough thing to address because 99% of the conversations around it are either bad-faith or ignorant. and i think calling it “male privilege” is a deep misrepresentation, we desperately need a better term. because yeah, i don’t think a lot of pre-transition transfems actually have access to what we typically think of as “male privilege”—at the very least not to the same degree as average cis men.
BUT, for 37 years i never had to worry about walking alone at night. never had to worry about ordering food delivery and getting a creep delivery guy. didn’t think about people putting things in my drinks. didn’t text my friends to let them know my date didn’t murder me. never got catcalled. never got grabbed. never owned pepper spray or thought about self-defense training. and i didn’t have to start thinking about any of this as a literal child the way a lot of cis women are forced to.
are our pre-transition lives, on the whole, privileged as a result of our presumed gender? no, i don’t think so. but do we have access to specific privilege in specific contexts as a result of our perceived gender? well, yeah, and i don’t really see any other way to view it. like, all the pain and trauma and shit that we go through as a result of growing up in cisnormativity, yeah that’s demonstrably extremely harmful…but i just don’t buy that the violence we are exempted from is a form of violence against us.
and despite that our pre-transition lives are generally not marked by a net positive of privilege, i think it’s *really* important to acknowledge and examine and critique the specific ways we do access privilege during that part of our lives. failure to do so leaves us ill-equipped to examine other kinds of privilege and oppression.
