"Is Mastodon becoming an echo chamber?"
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@artemis@dice.camp I keep seeing people react to this but not seeing the origin, who's saying that 'mastodon is an echo chamber'? I guessing its a bot campaign, exactly the kind of thing that isn't tolerated here, and that's why they're mad
@mook
If you are curious, I (and I assume at least some of the other people you are seeing) am reacting to a social.coop user Scott Jenson. Looks like he's a largish account, but unsurprisingly in the Fedi circles I am in, most people are pretty damned unimpressed with his take. -
Calling us bigots for not welcoming enemy propagandists is fucking rich.
Call me old school, but IMO *nobody* is obliged to interact with someone, or has to justify if they don't. It's an individual's *free* choice.
(And I for one block anyone who's spreading AI propaganda.)
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R relay@relay.infosec.exchange shared this topic
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Calling us bigots for not welcoming enemy propagandists is fucking rich.
But seriously, I am pretty sure there are corners of Fedi where AI boosters are totally welcome.
That's the thing about Fedi.
But it's possible instances where AI boosting is welcome & encouraged may find themselves defederated from instances that don't promote AI slop & blocked by users who don't want to see that shit in their timeline.
And that's what they are complaining about. They are complaining that they don't get to insist on being in your timeline & in your mentions.
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@mook
It seems to be pretty standard white tech bro nonsense. It's just kind of funny to me because it seems like he's literally not understanding what Fedi is at a pretty fundamental level. We get to choose what "Fedi" is in our own experience. That's how it is built.@artemis@dice.camp ah, and social.coop itself is an explicitly left wing instance with a pretty strict blocklist, like you have to fill out an application to join, at least you did when i tried to join, so idk dude if you want a place more tolerant of slop there are plenty
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But seriously, I am pretty sure there are corners of Fedi where AI boosters are totally welcome.
That's the thing about Fedi.
But it's possible instances where AI boosting is welcome & encouraged may find themselves defederated from instances that don't promote AI slop & blocked by users who don't want to see that shit in their timeline.
And that's what they are complaining about. They are complaining that they don't get to insist on being in your timeline & in your mentions.
If you're complaining that the kind of behavior that is widely seen as extremely antisocial is unwelcome in many people's "social media" experience, maybe Fedi isn't for you.
I don't think you want a social media platform that is constructed around choice, because I see you out here really upset that people are making the choice that they don't want AI in their lives.
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I was a part of online communities he had created (where I used to live) & watched that winnowing away happen in real time. I was one of the participants who walked away when this tech bro wouldn't act to reign in hate speech.
If that is full participation, I'll eat my laptop.
2/2
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"Is Mastodon becoming an echo chamber?"
I dunno. What even is 'Mastodon' in this conversation?
I'm on dice.camp because I like their moderation & federation decisions. If you're on a different instance, how "echo-y" your "echo chamber" is may vary.
But if you don't like it when people are picky about who they associate with & how, just go hang out on mastodon.social or whatever.
@artemis
"Is Mastodon becoming an echo chamber?"Maybe^^ But so what if it is? I like pubs full of working class guys, squatters, artists & lefties because the people there are more likely to share my opinions. I tend not to go to pubs I find full of racists & fascists. I'm happy to talk to racists & fascists but not when they're backed by their chosen tribe on their own ground. If they want to share their opinions with me they'll have to be polite but they rarely do & they rarely are. It's the same with social media; I don't beat myself up because I'm not giving racists & fascists special privileges.
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They have to frame it as a diversity issue because they want to distract from the fact that it is a *consent* issue!
Not wanting to associate with Black people is bigotry, but not wanting to associate with AI-shills is just protecting your peace. These are not the goddamn same, & it's really sinister asking people to pretend they are.
It is weird to insist people should HAVE to interact with you, regardless of your behavior. It shows a lack of respect for people's agency & choice.
@artemis It's telling, to me, that these people view someone not wanting to interact with them as a consequence of their behaviour the same as not wanting to interact with someone due to skin tone.
To my cynical and generally people-hating brain it strikes me as the mindset of someone who thinks skin tone is somehow related to morality/rightness.
(idk maybe I'm reaching, and I'm not explaining it well, but my brain sees the line from AI-shills bitching about tolerance to white supremacy)
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Bad actors will always try to hijack "diversity" to force us to accept actual enemies into our camp.
"AI", as it exists now, is a tool of our enemies: they use it to enshrine bias into employment processes so it no longer requires a bigoted human in the loop. They use AI to devalue the work of writers, researchers, coders, artists & more. They use AI to automate decisions of who should be bombed, who should starve, & who should be erased/ignored/& excluded.
@artemis@dice.camp Diversity and "tolerance" are not principles in themselves, but a consequence of intellectual honesty as well as respecting people's basic dignity and rights.
And if diversity and tolerance conflict with the actual principles, the principles take priority.
We want a fair community and society, it being diverse and tolerant is more of a side effect of being fair to people than it is a strict goal in and of itself. -
They have to frame it as a diversity issue because they want to distract from the fact that it is a *consent* issue!
Not wanting to associate with Black people is bigotry, but not wanting to associate with AI-shills is just protecting your peace. These are not the goddamn same, & it's really sinister asking people to pretend they are.
It is weird to insist people should HAVE to interact with you, regardless of your behavior. It shows a lack of respect for people's agency & choice.
@artemis it's funny, i never saw the original posts by the slop peddlers in question because i blocked them, long ago because they are well known bad faith actors in slop boosterism
i blocked them the same way i blocked simonw for the same behavior, but this time it's different somehow
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Bad actors will always try to hijack "diversity" to force us to accept actual enemies into our camp.
"AI", as it exists now, is a tool of our enemies: they use it to enshrine bias into employment processes so it no longer requires a bigoted human in the loop. They use AI to devalue the work of writers, researchers, coders, artists & more. They use AI to automate decisions of who should be bombed, who should starve, & who should be erased/ignored/& excluded.
@artemis This has nothing to do with what you're actually saying, but my stupid brain chose Tommy Wiseau as a stand-in for a "bad actor", and just thinking of how poorly he'd try to do what you're saying made me chuckle.
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"Is Mastodon becoming an echo chamber?"
I dunno. What even is 'Mastodon' in this conversation?
I'm on dice.camp because I like their moderation & federation decisions. If you're on a different instance, how "echo-y" your "echo chamber" is may vary.
But if you don't like it when people are picky about who they associate with & how, just go hang out on mastodon.social or whatever.
I’m sure there are echo chambers. But in my experience, the “echo chamber” in my feed on mastodon is what we used to call “consensus reality” back when facts beat vibes.
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@artemis It's telling, to me, that these people view someone not wanting to interact with them as a consequence of their behaviour the same as not wanting to interact with someone due to skin tone.
To my cynical and generally people-hating brain it strikes me as the mindset of someone who thinks skin tone is somehow related to morality/rightness.
(idk maybe I'm reaching, and I'm not explaining it well, but my brain sees the line from AI-shills bitching about tolerance to white supremacy)
@MsHearthWitch @artemis and it's not even the same behavior they're comparing either. Black people on fedi aren't just being ignored--if that was the whole problem there wouldn't be TBS because the racists would do the job of maintaining blocks. AI shills are comparing "people didn't widely boost my post and follow me because they have moral objections to what I'm doing" to "people sent me death threats until I had to delete my account/instance for safety, because I'm Black"
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It's interesting how important it is to some people that you supposedly shouldn't be choosey about who you associate with.
The person I saw talking about this framed the "problem" of AI-shills being "unwelcome" on Fedi (not sure I buy that either—they seem to have their own corners of Fedi) as the same thing as Black users being harassed/unsafe/not included, which is just absurd.
It's very "blue lives matter" coded, ya know? Like, being a techbro is not an inherent part of who you are.
@artemis I hope this isn't about me, but on the hunch that it is, it means I was not conveying at all what I meant. I don't think they're remotely the same, and if that's what came across, I'm pretty horrified.
Your point about consent is much better. I need to work on not accepting the framing I'm handed.
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If you're complaining that the kind of behavior that is widely seen as extremely antisocial is unwelcome in many people's "social media" experience, maybe Fedi isn't for you.
I don't think you want a social media platform that is constructed around choice, because I see you out here really upset that people are making the choice that they don't want AI in their lives.
@artemis I would argue that "AI" is a fundamentally anti-human technology.
They stole literally every piece of text and audio and video on the internet that *people* created, without consent or compensation, and used it to create machine that replace humans.And therefore, I do not have *any* respect for people promoting or using it. Not even the basic respect that every human deserves, because they are actively promoting the replacement of humans with machines.
They are enemies of mankind.
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"Is Mastodon becoming an echo chamber?"
I dunno. What even is 'Mastodon' in this conversation?
I'm on dice.camp because I like their moderation & federation decisions. If you're on a different instance, how "echo-y" your "echo chamber" is may vary.
But if you don't like it when people are picky about who they associate with & how, just go hang out on mastodon.social or whatever.
@artemis 110% spot on.
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@artemis I would argue that "AI" is a fundamentally anti-human technology.
They stole literally every piece of text and audio and video on the internet that *people* created, without consent or compensation, and used it to create machine that replace humans.And therefore, I do not have *any* respect for people promoting or using it. Not even the basic respect that every human deserves, because they are actively promoting the replacement of humans with machines.
They are enemies of mankind.
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@artemis I would argue that "AI" is a fundamentally anti-human technology.
They stole literally every piece of text and audio and video on the internet that *people* created, without consent or compensation, and used it to create machine that replace humans.And therefore, I do not have *any* respect for people promoting or using it. Not even the basic respect that every human deserves, because they are actively promoting the replacement of humans with machines.
They are enemies of mankind.
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"Is Mastodon becoming an echo chamber?"
I dunno. What even is 'Mastodon' in this conversation?
I'm on dice.camp because I like their moderation & federation decisions. If you're on a different instance, how "echo-y" your "echo chamber" is may vary.
But if you don't like it when people are picky about who they associate with & how, just go hang out on mastodon.social or whatever.
@artemis Thank you for this whole thread; you've managed to articulate my feelings on the "echo chamber" post better than I could.
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R relay@relay.mycrowd.ca shared this topic
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Calling us bigots for not welcoming enemy propagandists is fucking rich.
so the "main character" is rehashing the same old tired fucking liberal centrist big-brained argument with the usual side of DARVO.
i'm so fucking tired of these people. can we build something yet? i'm so fucking tired.
