The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
@futurebird They don''t even know what "Left" means (nor "conservative" either, for that matter)
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@oddtail @futurebird I (a women, as cisgender as can be l, but autistic) had so much internalized hate on women growing up, and only realized it really really late. I've been working for the last ten years to let go of it, but the need to distance myself from the more feminine-coded women sits really deep.
It's partly trauma from trying hard and never succeeding at fitting in. But it's also the early realization, that women are just worth less in our society.
That might also have been when and where you grew up. The 80s and 90s were pretty anti-girl in the US.
This is why Buffy and Powerpuff girls were so big I think, they were the female equivalent of the male antihero.
But on the surface they had to be a joke, it was just too unsettling at the time to actually have women be valuable.
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I don't think this revulsion is just natural, it's a high effort system done intentionally to keep women in our place. If a little boy thinks the pink toy is just as nice for him as the more masculine army green toys... well the whole world may fall into disorder.
Cats and dogs living together and all of that.
@futurebird it is interesting that I keep hearing about cats and dogs recently.
The immigrants are eating cats and dogs.
The Iranian government officials are infighting like cats and dogs.
Boys talking with girls is cats and dogs living together.
Idk maybe when trump is pissing he's so mighty and powerful that it's raining cats and dogs in his toilet bowl. -
@futurebird Left wingers tend to almost unfailingly see it. The problem is sometimes they make up the connection where none exists.
Except sometimes we later find out it is real and then that becomes part of the overall and disjointed narrative of resistance.
@futurebird
I'm surprised by the question, since as @InkySchwartz says, the left is hyper-sensitive to control systems. Minimizing those is our raison d’être.The responses by @willyyam, @huxley, & @infryq are also confusing. These are all examples of "irrational" behavior done to support hierarchy. Surely everyone knows (both left & right) why it's being done.
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
I have thought about this a lot recently, as part of my self-exit-counselling from cult propaganda. One thing I think most people (across the board) don't know about, is how indoctrination works and how to undo that damage, for oneself and others. Including others who might not want to be de-indoctrinated, like right wingers.
One thing is, attacking their beliefs, ideologies or leaders, no matter how wrong, absurd or laughable they are, will send people DEEPER into the clutches of those forces.
That's counter intuitive because most of us probably have experiences like that "don't be girly" stuff, where something we liked was attacked and we stopped liking it or at least expressing that.
But right wing, fascist and other extremists operate like cults. And they often indoctrinate members so that attacks strengthen their worldview. For example via a persecution complex.
Another thing people on the left, in my experience, don't understand is that good (or at least not-inherently-evil) people can be manipulated and abused into becoming right wing footsoldiers. That doesn't excuse the harm they're doing, but it could open up avenues of intervention. That's just theoretical for me though, but something I'm interested in because of my own history.
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird They don’t. As someone who was raised in the depths of the conservative manipulation and control system, most liberals don’t have a clue how it works or how people actually crawl out of it.
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
@futurebird This is all true, but I think it’s missing something.
There’s something fundamental behind this, and it’s a different way of seeing the world alltogether.
When how you organise events in life and the world, centers instead of finding out facts but on power/dominance and in-group/out-group relationships, it makes all the sense in the world.
Try to bend your mind to imagine a person for whom that is the primary lived experience, and all this is completely secondary!
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@futurebird They don''t even know what "Left" means (nor "conservative" either, for that matter)
@LaughingCoyote @futurebird They don’t care actually. They care only for who should be in power, not why.
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@LaughingCoyote @futurebird They don’t care actually. They care only for who should be in power, not why.
@gimulnautti @futurebird I'd say they are indifferent to who is in authority and in control of force -- a word important to differentiate from power, as Hannah Arendt points out -- except to benefit their perceived self interest, regardless of the consequences.
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I don't think this revulsion is just natural, it's a high effort system done intentionally to keep women in our place. If a little boy thinks the pink toy is just as nice for him as the more masculine army green toys... well the whole world may fall into disorder.
Cats and dogs living together and all of that.
Clear and astute observations.
“I don't think this revulsion is just natural, it's a high effort system done intentionally to keep women in our place.” It keeps men “in their place” too as you point out.
The high effort system has a name: patriarchy, and it’s a natural bedfellow to supremacy.
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
This psychological profile fits exactly the dynamics of authoritarianism of any kind.
The domineering psychological profile reasons about the world in terms of fighting another dominating male. By definition, the leader controls everything and determines everything.
This is the sort of stuff cultural anthropologists worked out in the late 80s and early 90s.
If you learn about it, the different pieces of democracy, egalitarianism, and tyranny fallen place
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird
That's my experience. Lefty friends talk about the right as if they hold deeply considered beliefs and my right leaning family talk about the left being brainwashed. -
If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird The strange thing to me is that the far right isn't some rigid unified hierarchy either. It's not like there's someone generally agreed as "the leader of the Neo Nazis". Or "The general of the militias". They're all a weird hodge podge of diverse far right fash clubs.
I think it's less that they can't conceive of a loosely associated diaspora of groups, and more that they want to build it up as some boogie man, likely with some Jewish or Black or Trans person or whatever as "The Leader".
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
It’s not the case because an egalitarian mindset is ever vigilant against the domineering behavior all of us are subject to.
The problem we all face is that all of us have been sold. The idea that there’s just left and there’s this right and each of them argued there is a compromise between freedom and prosperity when they are inseparable.
Real left-wing mindset understands. They are inseparable and those parties that claim the mantle of compromise are by definition right wing
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Saying and believing things is a loyalty test; this is why the right goes on missionary expeditions. It is not to get converts (though that's fine too) but to separate "us" from "them". To show our young people that the others are wrong, and reject you personally for your beliefs.
That keeps the next generation from questioning.
The point is creating contrast with "them", the out-group that is inherently wrong and evil.
@willyyam @futurebird Yep, and the source of truth for them is not evidence or logic, but authority. That's why it's no use arguing with them.
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
@futurebird it's because that's what they do and their imagination is so limited they can't imagine any other way to exist, and the idea of existing without hierarchy scares the shit out of them cause it would mean the end of their unearned power. they are nothing without it.
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird i've heard a lot of people say that anarchy is the default human position. most us are already anarchists and just don't know it yet.
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Sometimes I think some of the things we consider "normal" for childhood are basically conversion camp. Like teaching boys to fear being called "like a girl" as the worst possible insult. Of course (if you are a guy) you don't want someone to say you are a girl, that's not who you are.
But the dread and horror of such insults is kind of unnatural. It can be traumatic. *Every* man I know has a traumatic memory of doing something "for girls" by accident and getting attacked and humiliated for it.
@futurebird we know that white supremacy is a death cult.
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That sounds like such a mean accusation. But I kind of wonder.
@futurebird @spz Seems plausible at least for core MAGA. I mean, we see it. Every. Single. Day. But of course, most people are not such clean specimens. They are complicated. Values matter, and what people they look up to say matters, in a varying mix.
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That might also have been when and where you grew up. The 80s and 90s were pretty anti-girl in the US.
This is why Buffy and Powerpuff girls were so big I think, they were the female equivalent of the male antihero.
But on the surface they had to be a joke, it was just too unsettling at the time to actually have women be valuable.
@MCDuncanLab @oddtail @futurebird 90s in Europe weren't much different.
And to be honest, even though we've had a few female media heroines in the meantime, I'm afraid things didn't change enough overall. Of course, women do mostly have jobs now, but if they have kids, they now can't do anything right anymore. And work is still a boy's club if you climb high enough.
Nothing that can't be rolled back in a generation, as is very apparent by the tendencies seen in your government, I'm sure you're aware.
