CIRCLE WITH A DOT

@lispi314 @spdrnl @pluralistic Agree on the price reduction, and that does kinda happen if you recycle through Apple and get a rebate. I'd like to see vendors reuse more.

Thing is, Apple did address the issue of stolen phones.

@lispi314 @spdrnl @pluralistic I need to put a pin in this as it's after midnight in Australia. Happy to pick up again in ~8 hours.

I understand the reuse argument, but I just don’t think it should apply to any tech with processors in them. CPUs have security vulnerabilities, and you can't always guarantee they will be mitigated properly. Things like Intel dropping multi-threading because side channel attacks became too easy. Recycle it and stop it being used by someone unwittingly.

@lispi314 @spdrnl @pluralistic How quickly would tools to unlock Macs supplied to resellers end up on the black market? Less than a week?

@lispi314 @spdrnl @pluralistic That one's a no win situation, but also I will point out that if they are sitting on mountains of hardware, it doesn't need to be wasted. It's only wasted if you don't use one of the many options for recycling we have, you may even get some money for it.

No win is, when the iPhone came out, it was the most stolen phone on the planet. Apple introduces tools to protect end users from having their data stolen, and kill off the black market. Incidentally, second hand.

@spdrnl @lispi314 @pluralistic I’m mixed on RISC-V. Heck, I seem to be mixed on a lot these days. I like the idea of open hardware, but OSS is the perpetual 60% complete project and most of that has been relearning what everyone who came before them already knew. Storage is HARD, BeeGFS from Germany claimed it's a leading PFS.. Except they couldn't even mirror properly. BTRFS stalled for 10 years. OpenZFS is basically just polishing what Sun/Oracle already built..

@spdrnl @lispi314 @pluralistic Yeah, and I’m definitely not blind to the issues in the market. One of the things Cory talks about is the use of open standard data connectors, so that people can take their content from Facebook, move to a new platform, and still interact with folks on Facebook. We should always push to support standards. But I also see that Apple still attracts the highest vulnerability bounties, due to rarity, something about the combination of hardware and software allows that.

@spdrnl @lispi314 @pluralistic Patent litigation is an issue, but again, I'd say that's a patent process problem in general more than an Apple one.. Fix the patent industry in general and Apple won't be a problem. The lobbying is somewhat bullshit, but I also fight against opening up the hardware. Recycle the hardware, which Apple does. Extending its life when every CPU, Bluetooth, Wireless modem is buggy as hell? No thanks.

@spdrnl @lispi314 @pluralistic DRM, you're aiming at the wrong folks. Apple dropped DRM on music the moment the Music industry did. Which was shortly after they realised they'd given Apple a monopoly. The Movie industry still pushes DRM so everyone has it.

@spdrnl @lispi314 @pluralistic There you both go making stuff up again.

Apple has never gone after anyone for opening a Mac up. People have been shipping shims to make MacOS run on older Macs and even PC hardware for decades, Apple hasn't gone after them. The only time Apple did go after someone for “opening a Mac up” was Pegasus, when they went out and built a business around selling MacOS on PC hardware. The problem there is it becomes something that the end user expects Apple to support.

@lispi314 @spdrnl @pluralistic That's the problem with OSS folks. Incredibly short memories. Particularly if it's inconvenient for their arguments, I.e the amount Apple commits to OSS projects like LLVM (Xcode), Webkit et al. They're fake on the privacy stuff while writing papers with experts. Swift is OSS under the Apache 2.0 license with an exception that doesn't require an acknowledgement if the runtime is included in your application.

@spdrnl @lispi314 @pluralistic What?

@lispi314 @spdrnl @pluralistic Ahh, and because it's prohibitively expensive for you, it has no right to exist. Got it.. We should only work on things that you personally can afford.

You're still not making any sense, at all.

@lispi314 @spdrnl @pluralistic It's perfectly fine for you to choose not to support the platform, just don't go making up stuff like it's prohibitively expensive or other rubbish. If you wanted to support it, you could. That’s a current model Mac Mini, you could find second hand ones on eBay for cheaper, and they'll still do the job.

Someone new to development could buy a new Mac, and develop for both Linux and Mac comfortably.

@lispi314 @spdrnl @pluralistic Oh, and I like BSD ports. I've spent a bunch of time on the BSDs, Net Open and Free. Nothing quite like building LDAP with DB support and your DB with LDAP support

@lispi314 @spdrnl @pluralistic Well again, this is you projecting with apparently no knowledge.

Price of entry into the Apple Ecosystem, is yes, an Apple device, which, a Mac Mini, which will do the job fine, is $599 USD. Entry into the developer program, which is essentially identity verification, all tools available without paying the fee, is $99 USD per year, and has been since it started.

So for less than the price of a mid level GPU, you can get into MacOS development.

@lispi314 @spdrnl @pluralistic It would work, it's the same OS, just a different skin.

I haven't done it, because I don't need a hole in the head. I have the choice of a dozen SSH clients, including some free.

I'm sorry, it's not reasonable to ask “average users" to install Brew, but they should use Linux and OpenSoftware like GIMP?

Seriously, no consistency in your arguments.

@lispi314 @spdrnl @pluralistic Umm wow. So much wrong in that, I don't know where to start.

Least free software? Don't mention that to the Brew or MacPorts folks. Also don't mention that a good chunk of OSS is developed on MacOS these days, you’ll find Makefiles with MacOS build instructions, because it doesn't suck as much as Linux on the desktop does.

I also love that OpenSource folks seem to think that no one ever should get paid for writing software, even if it's OSS software. Try again?

@spdrnl @pluralistic @lispi314 It's not one, it's 4 at least. And as I pointed out, the only reason why we don't have a single standard, NVIDIA CUDA in this instance, is because Apple's closed instance locks them out. If it was open, we'd just be beholden to NVIDIA.

You could say that we need to make CUDA open, technically it apparently is, the problem is that NVIDIA drive it, so their stuff works best.

Open means you can't lock people out, or, you get fragmented standards. Re: Linux desktops.

@spdrnl @pluralistic Online Video: All tied up in Macromedia flash. Apple doesn't include it on iPhone. Microsoft IIS adds support for HTML5 <video> and YouTube starts adopting it.
Currently I think we have a fair amount of support for things like OpenCL and other standards because people want to support both Mac and other platforms. Otherwise we'd be even more tied to NVIDIA CUDA.. Apple's platform is too big to ignore. No other player can push this.

Happy to hear your thoughts.. 2/2

@spdrnl @pluralistic I'm actually going to argue against this, and I've been meaning to put something together on it.
Apple, the biggest purveyors of walled gardens, have at least 3 times, been the major drivers of new technology, and open technology at that. And I think their garden at the moment is also holding open some doors.
Wifi: Lucent builds wifi base station. Apple creates instant market by putting wifi in iBooks.
USB: Slowly growing. Apple creates instant market with iMac.
1/n