How would the world be different today if the US had stayed out of the Vietnam War?
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If we ever get out of this ugly little era we can't pretend that it didn't happen. There is a lesson here.
@3janeTA@beige.party @futurebird@sauropods.win
Are we collectively yelling at Fukuyama?
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World History
Year 0: Jesus is born.
Year 1492: America is "discovered", to the great surprise of the people living there.
Year 1776: Jesus signs the Declaration of Independence, which also declares all people to be free (people meaning white men who are not Irish).
Year 1941: The USA starts killing Nazis. One of the first occassions where other nations agree that the USA killing people is a good idea.
Year 1993: The average american has Internet now (average american meaning upper middle class white men).
...
To be fair, most history is "we kill people because we are better"...
@wakame @futurebird @vikxin @roknrol 1776 (further notes): the Italians and other Mediterraneans were also suspect, we’d fold them into whiteness later
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@3janeTA@beige.party @futurebird@sauropods.win
Are we collectively yelling at Fukuyama?
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How would the world be different today if the US had stayed out of the Vietnam War?
I know very little about this war and wouldn't mind maybe reading a book about it. But I don't know where to start. I'd love something that added context without pushing a political agenda. So I don't want an anti-communist book, or really even an explicitly ani-capitalist one. I'd like to think I could understand the power vectors and their impact on ordinary people. This is hard to do!
@futurebird quite honestly, if you're coming in that cold, Ken Burns' documentary is a decent jumping off point.
And no, it's not perfect by any measure, but it does an extremely good job of demonstrating the pressures and mindset which led to five presidents, from both parties, making the place a charnel house.
And in a very short answer: Truman had signed security guarantees to the French to get them to join NATO; France called those in in 1950
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@futurebird Propaganda? Are we talking about the same show? The main character spends an awful lot of time directly stating that they're getting kids killed for nothing. Unless I guess you mean like a reverse kneejerk counter-reaction to just him saying it too much or something?
Yes. Normalizing propaganda specifically. War is in inevitable and unquestionable condition. War and conflict are like the weather, a natural disaster rather than a man made one.
And we must cope, we must survive but never question the entire premise?
Does that make sense?
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Yes. Normalizing propaganda specifically. War is in inevitable and unquestionable condition. War and conflict are like the weather, a natural disaster rather than a man made one.
And we must cope, we must survive but never question the entire premise?
Does that make sense?
@futurebird Alright, I think I see what you're saying. I honestly feel like that's not what they were trying to do (bear in mind the time frame in which it came out) but I'll be the first to admit I'm not really in a position to know for sure.
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@futurebird Alright, I think I see what you're saying. I honestly feel like that's not what they were trying to do (bear in mind the time frame in which it came out) but I'll be the first to admit I'm not really in a position to know for sure.
It's a good show with good writing and the writers did some good work.
But why was it allowed to exist? What role did it play in shaping the story we tell to ourselves?
It's like "Law and Order" and other cop shows in that way. (I love Law and Order, but it's also propaganda) ... this is the effective kind of propaganda, admitting many truths.
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@futurebird Alright, I think I see what you're saying. I honestly feel like that's not what they were trying to do (bear in mind the time frame in which it came out) but I'll be the first to admit I'm not really in a position to know for sure.
I don't use "propaganda" as a synonym for "bad" or "evil" ...
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It's a good show with good writing and the writers did some good work.
But why was it allowed to exist? What role did it play in shaping the story we tell to ourselves?
It's like "Law and Order" and other cop shows in that way. (I love Law and Order, but it's also propaganda) ... this is the effective kind of propaganda, admitting many truths.
@futurebird I'm really not sure. I know there was a lot of anti-war sentiment going around at that time. I honestly feel like it would be enough so that Hollywood would be more willing to cross that boundary. Especially under the guise of "oh it's just a comedy, it's all in good fun!" to get away with stuff they otherwise might not be able to. It definitely managed to get in some points like the general that was racking in massive losses just to keep taking a hill no one needed. And the whole fake appendicitis thing.
But I get that you're talking about normalization, not, say Dragnet. It's really hard to say one way or the other looking at it this way. There is some just accepting it, but I really feel like there is an awful lot of raging against the machine.
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What does a typical US high school education teach about this war?
"The US went to Vietnam to save people from Communism, but it got messy and maybe it wasn't worth it."
That's about it. This must be... not even close to the whole story.
A lot of people including a significant chunk of American soldiers died in this war. When it started the US public supported it. By the time it ended most people didn't, though feelings are "complex."
@futurebird Our history books mostly can't even acknowledge unequivocally that the Civil War was about slavery.
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@futurebird @roknrol Curricula love to leave out the part where the US had nuclear missiles in Turkey
@vikxin @futurebird @roknrol ...OH. Wow. Gosh. That's like how English schools used to teach the Irish famine.
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"But, Mr. Block why would the the USSR put nuclear missiles in Cuba? They had to know the US would be frightened and angry about that?"
"Well they just wanted the whole world to be communist. They really thought communism would work. We don't have time to dwell on this there are six more units we need to complete before the AP* exam."
*AP stands for "Advanced Placement" I was in a 'advanced' history course and I earned an A! My head is empty nonetheless.
@futurebird I remember how amazed I was to learn (not in high school) that the colonial occupation of Vietnam began waaaay back in the 1800s by the French, and it was that occupation that fomented the eventually successful communist state movement led by Ho Chi Minh.
Of course, now, I know I should not have been so surprised about such a colonial arc, as they were and are so common to the story of so many countries and peoples — not least of all our own.
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@futurebird @roknrol Curricula love to leave out the part where the US had nuclear missiles in Turkey
@vikxin @futurebird @roknrol
It wasn't public knowledge for a long time. -
World History
Year 0: Jesus is born.
Year 1492: America is "discovered", to the great surprise of the people living there.
Year 1776: Jesus signs the Declaration of Independence, which also declares all people to be free (people meaning white men who are not Irish).
Year 1941: The USA starts killing Nazis. One of the first occassions where other nations agree that the USA killing people is a good idea.
Year 1993: The average american has Internet now (average american meaning upper middle class white men).
...
To be fair, most history is "we kill people because we are better"...
@wakame @futurebird @vikxin @roknrol General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket" offers an interesting perspective from someone in the know. A bit dated - he died before WWII, before long-range missles and the atomic bomb. I wonder if he would be as much of an isolationist with those technologies in existence.
https://www.heritage-history.com/site/hclass/secret_societies/ebooks/pdf/butler_racket.pdf -
But if communism is so bad it will just fail on its own. Just stand back and watch while you keep trading and making money.
This only makes sense if we talk about power rather than ideology. Who gets to have power...
@futurebird @wyatt_h_knott @roknrol It becomes important to follow history via power first and stated ideology as a thing only in service to power.
I had a class on Soviet politics years ago at U. A lesson from the prof was critique of what was stated to be the state philosophy vs. what was implemented. The ready example was how everyone in the state was supposed to be equal, and the highlight privilege within party leadership.
Then he'd hold the mirror up and ask the same.
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How would the world be different today if the US had stayed out of the Vietnam War?
I know very little about this war and wouldn't mind maybe reading a book about it. But I don't know where to start. I'd love something that added context without pushing a political agenda. So I don't want an anti-communist book, or really even an explicitly ani-capitalist one. I'd like to think I could understand the power vectors and their impact on ordinary people. This is hard to do!
@futurebird
I learned a lot about the politics of that war from Ken Burns' The Vietnam War.
Years ago I ran across Gloria Emerson's Winners & Losers and it looks very interesting. I'm still only 63 pages into it, though, because I got sidetracked. I should pick it up again.The Vietnam War, like abortion being illegal at the time, is one of my personal... I don't really have a word for it. But they're both connected to my birth while I wish neither had happened.
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@Illuminatus @futurebird and because we *lost* the big war, the Germans get to learn nothing*but* third Reich in history.
@lizzard @futurebird Would you say you learn about the causes so much as about the process itself? Because looking at some stuff, I would have my doubts.
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Yeah, I hated history class because it made no damn sense. Learning as an adult I now find it really interesting. Because the events of the past do make sense, it's just US history as taught in school leaves so much out, contains so many white lies that it's hard to even follow.
@futurebird History is not about the past. It is about the reception of the past by present powerful and ruling class. @roknrol
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@futurebird This should *not* be the only book you read, but this tells part of the story. (And yes, this is Max Boot, but he does a pretty good job with military history.)
Tagging @PhoenixSerenity who is far more knowledgeable.
@dnkboston
I have learned more from talking to my elders (on both sides of our family) than from any books. They all lived through many years of US foreign occupation. We all have lifelong PTSD from the invaders indiscriminately killing our family & friends. -
I you are horrified that I'm a dumb American who doesn't know history I want to warn you that I'm considered a wonky history nerd in most circles (totally unearned) and most people in the US know much much much less than I do.
Anyway. Time to learn again.
I read a lot about the Vietnam war in the 1980s. One book, that must be out of print, described how Nixon and Kissinger directed bombing of Cambodia, without Congressional approval. This lead to the rise of Pol Pot, and the death of 1/2 of the Cambodians.
