With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
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@jaredwhite I noticed your posts Jared… and I was following with curiosity the replies. It doesn’t look good.
What worries me is that here in Europe advocacy for the open social web groups the two protocols together (ATProto and ActivityPub).
Also: European politicians and media organizations are gravitating towards Bluesky / ATproto and mostly ignoring the Fediverse…
@_elena Well…I would say it's "complicated".
I could envision a world where every major country or socioeconomic region has its own ATProto-based social network, because they have the resources to run that kind of infrastructure at scale. Not saying I like the idea, but that seems to be how ATProto was structured. Several *large enterprises* could run services which interoperate.
That's quite different from ActivityPub where you can run a decent social networking instance off a Raspberry Pi.
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@_elena Well…I would say it's "complicated".
I could envision a world where every major country or socioeconomic region has its own ATProto-based social network, because they have the resources to run that kind of infrastructure at scale. Not saying I like the idea, but that seems to be how ATProto was structured. Several *large enterprises* could run services which interoperate.
That's quite different from ActivityPub where you can run a decent social networking instance off a Raspberry Pi.
@_elena So yes, ultimately I agree with you. Lumping ATP & AP into one big ball of yarn labeled "open social web" seems fairly ludicrious to me. The goals are so wildly different, I fear it's more harmful than helpful to attempt unifying these separate approaches.
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@_elena I keep asking for this "decentralized" protocol to help me move off of all infrastructure controlled by the Bluesky corporation, and I keep getting the answer "well…so…uh…actually…"
Unfortunately I'm not waiting around for the "exit from evil billionaire control" scenario Jay Graber talked about a year ago or whatever, because that's already happened. So if I can't use ATProto without Bluesky, I guess I won't use ATProto.
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Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 (@mackuba@martianbase.net)
Attached: 1 image We now have a 10k+ community (likely more if you count lurkers) that could possibly survive by themselves if #Bluesky PBC was suddenly bought by Elon Trumpenberg and shut down #atproto
Martian Base (martianbase.net)
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Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 (@mackuba@martianbase.net)
Attached: 1 image We now have a 10k+ community (likely more if you count lurkers) that could possibly survive by themselves if #Bluesky PBC was suddenly bought by Elon Trumpenberg and shut down #atproto
Martian Base (martianbase.net)
@everton137 @mackuba Yeah, lots of folks are talking about how to migrate to a third-party PDS host, which is all fine and dandy but I'd still be reliant on Bluesky's infrastructure even if my own personal data is hosted elsewhere…which to me is not very compelling. I'm an all or nothing sorta guy…either I trust Bluesky enough that they can host all my stuff, or…I don’t trust them at all.
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@_elena So yes, ultimately I agree with you. Lumping ATP & AP into one big ball of yarn labeled "open social web" seems fairly ludicrious to me. The goals are so wildly different, I fear it's more harmful than helpful to attempt unifying these separate approaches.
@jaredwhite totally. BTW did you get an answer to your question yesterday?
I also wonder if there are ATProto equivalents to Phanpy or masto-fe... you know, web clients that allow you to log in with your credentials instead of going to bsky.app
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@jaredwhite totally. BTW did you get an answer to your question yesterday?
I also wonder if there are ATProto equivalents to Phanpy or masto-fe... you know, web clients that allow you to log in with your credentials instead of going to bsky.app
@_elena Sounds like there are some potential destinations in development, but nothing has become fully baked yet apart from Blacksky.
I already use a custom frontend to Bluesky called Klearsky…I can't actually log into the Bluesky web app at all. Somehow I got caught up in their age verification requirements, even though I'm based in Oregon.
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In September of 2025, under pressure to show they are really 'decentralized' and to great fanfare #Bluesky announced they were spinning out the "one centralized component" of their network to a new fully independent Switzerland based organization.
Creating an Independent Public Ledger of Credentials (PLC) Directory Organization
Creating an Independent Public Ledger of Credentials (PLC) Directory Organization | Bluesky
The Bluesky Social app is built on an open network protocol that refers to each user by a unique Decentralized Identifier, or DID (a W3C standard). The most popular supported DID method was developed in-house by Bluesky Social, and is called "Public Ledger of Credentials", or PLC. The PLC identity system currently relies on a global directory service to distribute identity updates, and that directory service has been operated by Bluesky as well.
(docs.bsky.app)
Since then crickets. No information on progress. Structure? Funding? Ownership? Who will it employ? Will the financials be public?
@mastodonmigration FYI: "Progress has also been made on formation of an independent PLC Organization, with an update to be shared at AtmosphereConf later this week." https://atproto.com/blog/2026-spring-roadmap
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With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
Maybe the perceived "drawbacks" of #ActivityPub are ultimately strengths?
#ATproto handles identity in a way that allows a single sign-in across apps. But wouldn't this make it easier to profile you? Is this why crypto VCs are so attracted to it?
And ATproto has funding in the 100s of millions by VCs but at some point they'll want to turn a profit. There is ZERO pressure here to ensh*tt*fy
@_elena it’s possible to use mastodon/ ActivityPub oauth sign-in to register or even login to other platforms, without publicly linking the accounts. I just haven’t seen anyone do this.
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@mastodonmigration FYI: "Progress has also been made on formation of an independent PLC Organization, with an update to be shared at AtmosphereConf later this week." https://atproto.com/blog/2026-spring-roadmap
Should be interesting
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@_elena it’s possible to use mastodon/ ActivityPub oauth sign-in to register or even login to other platforms, without publicly linking the accounts. I just haven’t seen anyone do this.
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@jaredwhite I noticed your posts Jared… and I was following with curiosity the replies. It doesn’t look good.
What worries me is that here in Europe advocacy for the open social web groups the two protocols together (ATProto and ActivityPub).
Also: European politicians and media organizations are gravitating towards Bluesky / ATproto and mostly ignoring the Fediverse…
@_elena @jaredwhite To be fair, it is possible to host all of the ATProto infrastructure for much cheaper with the same trade-offs as with a fediverse server, where you get an incomplete view of the network.
Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)
Arguing whether Bluesky is "really" decentralized is increasingly becoming a moot point. "full-network atproto relay on a $4.20/mo VPS" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3mfkrfvy3ok2u Running a PDS on a Raspberry Pi. https://justingarrison.com/blog/2024-12-02-run-a-bluesky-pds-from-home/ "A Bluesky appview focused on low resource consumption" https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLite "full-scale indie atproto relay [...] $30 CAD/mo" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3lne2wvr5hc2b #bluesky #fediverse
Stefan's Personal Mastodon Server (stefanbohacek.online)
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@_elena @jaredwhite To be fair, it is possible to host all of the ATProto infrastructure for much cheaper with the same trade-offs as with a fediverse server, where you get an incomplete view of the network.
Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)
Arguing whether Bluesky is "really" decentralized is increasingly becoming a moot point. "full-network atproto relay on a $4.20/mo VPS" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3mfkrfvy3ok2u Running a PDS on a Raspberry Pi. https://justingarrison.com/blog/2024-12-02-run-a-bluesky-pds-from-home/ "A Bluesky appview focused on low resource consumption" https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLite "full-scale indie atproto relay [...] $30 CAD/mo" https://bsky.app/profile/bad-example.com/post/3lne2wvr5hc2b #bluesky #fediverse
Stefan's Personal Mastodon Server (stefanbohacek.online)
@_elena @jaredwhite That is, with one exception.
Apparently the built-in DMs are stored off-protocol on Bluesky's servers. So, yeah.
(But they are apparently working on that.)
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With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
Maybe the perceived "drawbacks" of #ActivityPub are ultimately strengths?
#ATproto handles identity in a way that allows a single sign-in across apps. But wouldn't this make it easier to profile you? Is this why crypto VCs are so attracted to it?
And ATproto has funding in the 100s of millions by VCs but at some point they'll want to turn a profit. There is ZERO pressure here to ensh*tt*fy
@_elena Interesting point!
Personally, PDSes are one thing I really like about the Atmosphere/ATProto. Being able to log into multiple apps without needing to manage multiple accounts is pretty convenient, and enables more developer experimentation.
Here, you either create a new fediverse platform, meaning you need to create a new account, or maybe a Mastodon browser plugin or web app, because not many want to put in the effort to support all the different APIs.
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@django @_elena mastodon doesn't do anything to protect your data from being slurped by anyone who might want it, so I find that argument a bit hard to believe. The sort of integration that has been enabled by seperating identity, data hosting and relay/search indexing makes the type of hodgepodge interoperability we have today in the fediverse look pretty unusable. I say this as someone who has been pushing for the fediverse for over a decade and who thinks VCs should be chased with pitchforks
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With the news of the secret $100 million investment in Bluesky by Bain, I keep thinking about protocols.
Maybe the perceived "drawbacks" of #ActivityPub are ultimately strengths?
#ATproto handles identity in a way that allows a single sign-in across apps. But wouldn't this make it easier to profile you? Is this why crypto VCs are so attracted to it?
And ATproto has funding in the 100s of millions by VCs but at some point they'll want to turn a profit. There is ZERO pressure here to ensh*tt*fy
I'm not too much of a fan of having to make an account on every service, when the promise of activitypub is being able to view youtube posts from twitter, it's annoying to have accounts on both a youtube and twitter to get a proper experience.
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@_elena Interesting point!
Personally, PDSes are one thing I really like about the Atmosphere/ATProto. Being able to log into multiple apps without needing to manage multiple accounts is pretty convenient, and enables more developer experimentation.
Here, you either create a new fediverse platform, meaning you need to create a new account, or maybe a Mastodon browser plugin or web app, because not many want to put in the effort to support all the different APIs.
@_elena Also, have you read this?
An interview with @thisismisse…
An interview with @thisismissem@hachyderm.io from @APC@mastodon.social: [*FediMod FIRES on building better and decentralised social media applications*][1] (by @XavCC@todon.eu). > Probably the biggest thing that I’ve learned over the years of the Fediverse is that it depends almost entirely on volunteer labour. There are a few people that are paid full time to work on the Fediverse. But to actually get the things that you need, it very much largely depends on volunteer labour, because projects are either chasing funding through grants or they're chasing funding through their nations. And those demands can often be at odds with what people overall need or want. > > So that's probably the biggest learning from the Fediverse that I have: a lot of it is just run and funded by individuals and volunteers, which often means that it doesn't move as fast as more commercial operations. [1]: https://www.apc.org/en/news/fedimod-fires-building-better-and-decentralised-social-media-applications
(hollo.social)
Definitely not trying to say that the fediverse should in any way accept VC money. But we do need to figure out sustainable ways to fund all the work that's needed to be done.
Remember this, by the way?
Support Mastodon this Giving Tuesday!
Support Mastodon's Giving Tuesday campaign to fund a Trust & Safety Lead, ensuring a safe, inclusive, and thriving community. Donate today to make a difference!
Mastodon Inc (givebutter.com)
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@everton137 @mackuba Yeah, lots of folks are talking about how to migrate to a third-party PDS host, which is all fine and dandy but I'd still be reliant on Bluesky's infrastructure even if my own personal data is hosted elsewhere…which to me is not very compelling. I'm an all or nothing sorta guy…either I trust Bluesky enough that they can host all my stuff, or…I don’t trust them at all.
Yes, just to add, PDS is the easy part.
Here's a better way to view the network.
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Yes, just to add, PDS is the easy part.
Here's a better way to view the network.
@stefan @everton137 That's a neat visualization, thanks.
Still want to reiterate that the PDS concept just doesn't interest me. It's like if you could move the 0s & 1s data storage of your emails & personal contacts off of Google hosting…yet still use Gmail and all of its UI & services thereof.
Why?
The reason I use Fastmail is because I want nothing at all to do with Google / Gmail.
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@django @_elena mastodon doesn't do anything to protect your data from being slurped by anyone who might want it, so I find that argument a bit hard to believe. The sort of integration that has been enabled by seperating identity, data hosting and relay/search indexing makes the type of hodgepodge interoperability we have today in the fediverse look pretty unusable. I say this as someone who has been pushing for the fediverse for over a decade and who thinks VCs should be chased with pitchforks
@liaizon protocol wise there is authenticated Fetch, otherwise slurping might be individual server admin concerns (not saying they should be, but it requires other tools to the stack).
I think the point @_elena was pointing to is that this hodgepodge, Unusable Fediverse probably provides more friction to slurping than the structured nature of ATP.
