What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
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@bluestarultor But that was kinda the premise of the post I replied to. People don't switch to linux because linux users "are not kind and helpful enough" - and my experience - that people don't really want to switch, they just use the "linux users are not helpful enough!" to justify staying with companies they know they should really leave.
So, if we "want to beat big tech" we need to "work for free"
Our "kid" is 30 years old, still does not know how to drive a car, manages fine without it. I taught him to use computers because I realized that would be essential knowledge.
That bit paid off.
We can make our society less dependent on tech, like it was not all that long ago. But people like the convenience it gives. We could build good, publicly funded solutions, but people don't want to pay.
I don't know what the solution is, but blaming linux users for not being "helpful and friendly enough" is not the answer to anything...
@Linux_in_a_Bit@lettosprey @bluestarultor
I am not blaming Linux users for not being helpful enough.
I am blaming certain Linux users for being actively unhelpful.
There's a very, very big difference.The people it harms the most are actually people who've just switched to Linux, making it way harder for them to keep using Linux.
To put it another way, the problem is active, condescending gatekeeping; pushing away new people because they aren't good enough.
I see no way that behavior can ever be justified in the context of someone asking for help with Linux. -
@Linux_in_a_Bit I think this is called verbal abuse and Linux has a problem with bad management - "a fish starts stinking from the head".
RTFM means Read The Fucking Manual, which is a triple verbal abuse:
1) Ordering, which is verbal abuse (older version of Wikipedia: Verbal abuse)
2) The word "fucking", which is a curse word
3) Abusive anger. The phrase obviously conveys anger. Anger is an emotion which belongs to a situation where someone behaves unfair. But the user asking for help does not behave unfair.Also another problem is that Linux is, in my experience, simply unreliable. When I boot up my computer, sometimes:
1) X doesn't come up, stays in text mode
2) X comes up with the screen at wrong smaller resolution and the picture is in one corner of the screen
3) Mouse doesn't work
4) Keyboard doesn't work
5) Keyboard has wrong repetition rate
6) When inserting a USB peripheral, USB hard disk disconnects and the system crashes
7) Manpages are missing important information
Fails to update between major versions with guarantee of functionality
9) System freezes to a grinding halt instead of managing the RAM resource when RAM demand from programs exceeds RAM size
10) Sound doesn't workAlso I would say 80% of solutions from Google don't work and 40% of them don't work and screw up your system and don't contain information how to reverse the changes after you did them and realized they don't work.
Asking "Have you tried Google?" is like a car mechanic asking a customer "have you tried unauthorized, possibly irreversibly damaging tampering with your engine according to the advice of a random, likely incompetent, bystander?"
@clock @Linux_in_a_Bit recently set up a Debian 13.3.0 with kde ui. Very easy, everything works as expected. For solving advanced problems I got excellent help from mistral.ai.
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@GoodNewsGreyShoes@mastodon.art @brouhaha@mastodon.social @drdirtbag@mountains.social @Linux_in_a_Bit@infosec.exchange and you know, I think a lot of us aren't even used to there BEING an available manual. I'm used to it NOW, sort of, but when I compare the manuals that come with modern devices and software ("plug in" or "reboot") compared with ones for earlier devices ("here is how to deconstruct and reconstruct each piece of the device in explicit detail, combined with part numbers and specifications for individual parts")... let's just say it took me a while to get used to the idea that the manual had any value.
@GoodNewsGreyShoes @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit @aud
I suspect most computer users today would be amazed to learn that Microsoft Word and Excel originally came with manuals. Not only that, the manuals were actually pretty good. -
@GoodNewsGreyShoes @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit @aud
I suspect most computer users today would be amazed to learn that Microsoft Word and Excel originally came with manuals. Not only that, the manuals were actually pretty good.@GoodNewsGreyShoes @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit @aud
At some point, Microsoft must have decided that writing manuals was just an unnecessary expense, and that the help file, and the availability of third-party "Excel for Maroons" guides, was sufficient.
The entire software industry followed suit, even in cases where no third-party book exists. Next the software developers assumed that users can get answers from other users via a search engine, and that's going just great.
#enshittification -
@Linux_in_a_Bit
Make Linux Kindness a Thing@matera @Linux_in_a_Bit Wasn't that the point of starting Ubuntu, according to their marketing back then? People really liked that idea becaus the problem described in the OP was as present just as much in the 2000s. Has anything changed? How do you change it?
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Testify.
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@clock @Linux_in_a_Bit recently set up a Debian 13.3.0 with kde ui. Very easy, everything works as expected. For solving advanced problems I got excellent help from mistral.ai.
@heri @Linux_in_a_Bit The fact that 1 out of 500 Linux distros happened to work as expected for short time ("recently") in your particular scenario doesn't help the other users for which it doesn't work.
A product is reliable when it works reliable for everyone in any scenario, not just for one person in one scenario.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Putting politeness aside (yes, that is an issue), there is complication: Those who write that software like to write that software but do not like that much doing support work. (Plus it's quite a drag: they already gave away lots of work, no time to give away other kind of work.)
Hence opportunity to those who are not able to write software but are able to help others use it: write documentation, answers support forums, coordinate with developers, etc.
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@lettosprey @bluestarultor
I am not blaming Linux users for not being helpful enough.
I am blaming certain Linux users for being actively unhelpful.
There's a very, very big difference.The people it harms the most are actually people who've just switched to Linux, making it way harder for them to keep using Linux.
To put it another way, the problem is active, condescending gatekeeping; pushing away new people because they aren't good enough.
I see no way that behavior can ever be justified in the context of someone asking for help with Linux.@Linux_in_a_Bit As others have pointed out, this is the case for most anything, in no way unique to Linux.
I have been told I am too stupid and "using windows wrong".
So I don't buy the argument that this is the reason. People need it to be "effortless", and when it isn't, they cling to big tech, despite knowing the issues connected to doing so, using the "evil linux people" as the reason.
We see the same with art and AI now. People know AI is problematic.
"I want art, but it is too complicated to create. You cannot expect me to have the time to invest in it like you artists do, and I don't have the money to pay you what you ask. Since you don't provide the art I need, I have no other choice than to use AI. You are gatekeeping art, so AI, despite being problematic, is the only option available for me"
It's the same shit. Big-tech has made people dependent on simplicity at "no cost and effort", but rather than acknowledging this, we aim at and blame those that have the skills we don't.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit I even changed distros several times in the past to anticipate problems that new users may have with it so I can assist them. But it was usually people I know, not strangers in forums, so maybe that was the problem. That the kind of people sticking around forums were mostly assholes.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit there is another point I would like to stress as versatile Linux user: the ergonomics are a catastrophe on Linux.
E.g., on #Debian you have to click on completely unrelated icons to find the Button for shutting down the machine. Some distros even disallow this and you need to be sudo to even have the possibility to achieve this. No one supports hibernation anymore. Every time I test a Debian derivative I have one WTF moment after the other.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit there is another point I would like to stress as versatile Linux user: the ergonomics are a catastrophe on Linux.
E.g., on #Debian you have to click on completely unrelated icons to find the Button for shutting down the machine. Some distros even disallow this and you need to be sudo to even have the possibility to achieve this. No one supports hibernation anymore. Every time I test a Debian derivative I have one WTF moment after the other.
@Linux_in_a_Bit The whole system is designed around its maintainers, little nerds who are used to a certain amount of brainfuck and
to man pages without examples.A user-centric , what-can-I-do-here approach is not even considered.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit there is another point I would like to stress as versatile Linux user: the ergonomics are a catastrophe on Linux.
E.g., on #Debian you have to click on completely unrelated icons to find the Button for shutting down the machine. Some distros even disallow this and you need to be sudo to even have the possibility to achieve this. No one supports hibernation anymore. Every time I test a Debian derivative I have one WTF moment after the other.
@markuswerle @Linux_in_a_Bit actually you can do these things in Debian Linux e.g I have a separate button on my top bar to access quit, restart, suspend, hibernate, using sudoers although these days suspend doesn't properly any more, but hibernate still does, but it was very much up to me as the user to set this up myself or to find a Debian variant that already does exactly what I wanted.
When I used Mint it mostly worked out of the box so I could recommend it to newbies, whilst remaining configurable, but then it got the systemd cancer so now I use Devuan. -
@markuswerle @Linux_in_a_Bit actually you can do these things in Debian Linux e.g I have a separate button on my top bar to access quit, restart, suspend, hibernate, using sudoers although these days suspend doesn't properly any more, but hibernate still does, but it was very much up to me as the user to set this up myself or to find a Debian variant that already does exactly what I wanted.
When I used Mint it mostly worked out of the box so I could recommend it to newbies, whilst remaining configurable, but then it got the systemd cancer so now I use Devuan.@marjolica @Linux_in_a_Bit the point is: you can do everything on Linux and I am 10 x more productive on that platform, but the simplest things get in your way. And what exactly drove Debian developers to hide the shutdown button?
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@heri @Linux_in_a_Bit The fact that 1 out of 500 Linux distros happened to work as expected for short time ("recently") in your particular scenario doesn't help the other users for which it doesn't work.
A product is reliable when it works reliable for everyone in any scenario, not just for one person in one scenario.
Yes of course. I do not want to mention all the struggles I had with Windows (working with it since Win3.11 in the early 90ties, as professonal programmer). Suddenly from one day to another something does not work anymore, or different than yesterday, especially when migrating to a new OS version. And finding help for windows? Puhhh!!!!?!
Nowadays the AI can support you quiet well in computer technical problems. Especially the french mistral ai seems to be very good. This is valid for windows AND linux.
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@marjolica @Linux_in_a_Bit the point is: you can do everything on Linux and I am 10 x more productive on that platform, but the simplest things get in your way. And what exactly drove Debian developers to hide the shutdown button?
@Linux_in_a_Bit @markuswerle just to clarify, which display manager are you using? It's the display manager where you configure this (or accept whatever is the default). You have a choice of display manager if you use Debian (or most other linux distributions for that matter). I use Cinnamon, others use Gnome or KDE or XFCE or other alternatives.
So you have choices. In this respect desktop Linux is to the Windows or Apple desktops much like the #Fediverse is to Facebook or X. But yes it can be confusing. -
@GoodNewsGreyShoes @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit @aud
I suspect most computer users today would be amazed to learn that Microsoft Word and Excel originally came with manuals. Not only that, the manuals were actually pretty good.@brouhaha I am surprised to hear both of those things, & would love to see a photo of you still have one!
(note: I desire a photo not for proof, as I've no doubt you're telling the truth, but simply because I'd love to see about how big/detailed of a manual they were. Like, book sized? Leaflet? Notepad?
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@GoodNewsGreyShoes@mastodon.art @brouhaha@mastodon.social @drdirtbag@mountains.social @Linux_in_a_Bit@infosec.exchange and you know, I think a lot of us aren't even used to there BEING an available manual. I'm used to it NOW, sort of, but when I compare the manuals that come with modern devices and software ("plug in" or "reboot") compared with ones for earlier devices ("here is how to deconstruct and reconstruct each piece of the device in explicit detail, combined with part numbers and specifications for individual parts")... let's just say it took me a while to get used to the idea that the manual had any value.
@aud
️THHIIIIISSSSSS THIS YES THIS!
Ask any IT about their first steps when troubleshooting (generally, not for some specific issue) & I'd be astonished if any of their first 5 suggestions mention a manual.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit Linux has been plagued, from day one, by an elitist and ableist culture. If you don't understand, you're stupid and you don't deserve to be using it.
Want another feature? Make your own fork. The manual is too hard to understand? Write your own version. Making Linux user friendly is not our job and we don't care.
Mhhm, yeah. Perhaps giving positions of privilege to assholes just because they code well may have not been the best approach.
@yuki2501 @Linux_in_a_Bit
I am not happy to say, but a quite similar behaviour can be oberserved in very different communities (entirely non tech) as wellIt appears as a more general pattern of elitism "we have spent years of work to be there, we dont spoonfed you"
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@Linux_in_a_Bit I think this is called verbal abuse and Linux has a problem with bad management - "a fish starts stinking from the head".
RTFM means Read The Fucking Manual, which is a triple verbal abuse:
1) Ordering, which is verbal abuse (older version of Wikipedia: Verbal abuse)
2) The word "fucking", which is a curse word
3) Abusive anger. The phrase obviously conveys anger. Anger is an emotion which belongs to a situation where someone behaves unfair. But the user asking for help does not behave unfair.Also another problem is that Linux is, in my experience, simply unreliable. When I boot up my computer, sometimes:
1) X doesn't come up, stays in text mode
2) X comes up with the screen at wrong smaller resolution and the picture is in one corner of the screen
3) Mouse doesn't work
4) Keyboard doesn't work
5) Keyboard has wrong repetition rate
6) When inserting a USB peripheral, USB hard disk disconnects and the system crashes
7) Manpages are missing important information Fails to update between major versions with guarantee of functionality
9) System freezes to a grinding halt instead of managing the RAM resource when RAM demand from programs exceeds RAM size
10) Sound doesn't workAlso I would say 80% of solutions from Google don't work and 40% of them don't work and screw up your system and don't contain information how to reverse the changes after you did them and realized they don't work.
Asking "Have you tried Google?" is like a car mechanic asking a customer "have you tried unauthorized, possibly irreversibly damaging tampering with your engine according to the advice of a random, likely incompetent, bystander?"
Also another problem is that Linux is, in my experience, simply unreliable.
I don't know what distributive and hardware you're using, but I can't even imagine what needs to be done for Linux to work the way you described. I have two old laptops from the 2010s at home running Debian and AntiX. They have been working for many years with uptimes of 2 to 4 months without a single failure, and they only shut down when I leave for 10 and more days.
