What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
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@lettosprey @Linux_in_a_Bit You have a fundamental misunderstanding. Devops is building. Nobody is asking the average driver to build a car. They are asking them to drive it.
But when it breaks and can't be driven, that's fixing it.
Building, driving, and fixing are three different things.
If an OS is a car, then people can drive it all day long without knowing anything beyond how to manipulate the steering wheel, pedals, shift, and, ideally, turn signal. Maintenance means filling up the gas and other fluids. Most people don't do more than the gas themselves.
People get trained to use an OS the same way.
You're saying every driver should also be a mechanic.
And no, it's NOT your job to do it for free. But Microsoft does it for pay. And people are willing to pay.
What people are NOT willing to do is go to what looks like a mechanic and be handed a manual and told RTFM.
Someone has to do the work. It doesn't have to be you, but it does have to be someone.
That's what this thread is about.
@bluestarultor There is no one to one mapping between cars and computers, so your mapping is your interpretation.
"You are saying that..."
I am saying that average computer user should understand fundamental parts like files, folders, installing stuff, simple maintenance. Not overly complex stuff. Not something that would be hard for a person to learn if it was part of their usage in school.
Like, I don't know much about car repair, but anything that is needed on a regular "day to day" usage, I need to know.
"But Microsoft does it for pay."
Not really, it is equally complex there and people are now in a position where they can barely leave their browser and need everything "automated" in cloud hosted software. People can barely use Windows.
And, no, we don't want to pay, so we sell ourself instead.
"By your logic" and "your saying" - I just want knowledge to avoid tech-oppression to be part of fundamental education.
I guess I am asking too much.
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit At least over here in Germany, there are dozens of dedicated Linux User Groups as well as most Hackerspaces offering public meetings and sometimes online communities. Many of these groups welcome guests and are usually happy to help with issues or at least know where additional help is available. I would assume other countries have a similar community. They’re definitely worth a try.
https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/List_of_Hacker_Spaces (worldswide map)
https://www.linux-magazin.de/heft-abo/linux-user-groups/ (German, partly outdated) -
@bluestarultor There is no one to one mapping between cars and computers, so your mapping is your interpretation.
"You are saying that..."
I am saying that average computer user should understand fundamental parts like files, folders, installing stuff, simple maintenance. Not overly complex stuff. Not something that would be hard for a person to learn if it was part of their usage in school.
Like, I don't know much about car repair, but anything that is needed on a regular "day to day" usage, I need to know.
"But Microsoft does it for pay."
Not really, it is equally complex there and people are now in a position where they can barely leave their browser and need everything "automated" in cloud hosted software. People can barely use Windows.
And, no, we don't want to pay, so we sell ourself instead.
"By your logic" and "your saying" - I just want knowledge to avoid tech-oppression to be part of fundamental education.
I guess I am asking too much.
@Linux_in_a_Bit@lettosprey @Linux_in_a_Bit When it comes to files, folders, installation, I agree with you. Those are basic operating skills for a PC. The problem is that Millennials are the only generation who got any education in that and kids have iPads for school rather than a computer lab now. It's been that way for like a decade. They are operating on phones their whole lives.
We take files and folders for granted. We also take doorknobs for granted, but without knowing what it was, would you think to twist it? That's where they are.
That's not your problem or their fault, but what are their options? Who's going to teach them? Going back to cars, if they've done nothing but hop a train their whole life and now they need to drive a car, who's going to do Driver's Ed? Because the schools said, "welp, cars exist now, so all the kids will grow up knowing how to drive them!" And then proceeded to give them all train vouchers.
It doesn't have to be you, but someone has to teach them.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit I think we agree all, that this isn't a special problem of Linux, but of asking in the internet for help. Being unfriendly and unhelpful is much easier and quicker to do there, especially if you are incompetent. The good answers arrive after you have given up your faith in Linux and humanity. Even here in the fediverse.
Somebody who is paid to be kind to you is maybe the better person to ask, but sadly, my experience says no.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit not true anymore.
With AI integrated in most search engine, you often get the right response from it.
One of the few benefits of AI is that it can basically customise the documentation to make it sensible to you. It becomes a kind of live documentation.A simple how to fix … on [distro name] works 95% of the time in my experience.
@CedC@diaspodon.fr @Linux_in_a_Bit@infosec.exchange I might get hate from my Fedi ingroup for this but I find this to be an extremely good use of AI. I use Perplexity (a really nice AI search engine tool) for quickly learning technical stuff that would take me a ton of work reading scattered, sparse documentation otherwise
the trick is to only ask it for information that you can immediately test/verify
(with this said, I don't financially support AI companies ever because I'm very worried about the risks posed by AI)
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@_RyekDarkener_ using material without permission is stealing. People built AI by strealing other peoples work.
@Linux_in_a_BitYes. They did.
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>> “I totally understand why you’re frustrated. Would you like some help? This was hard for me too, at first, but I can share what I know.”
This is a *phenomenal* way to respond to an upset/impolite request.
- validates their concern & experience, *twice*
- indicates interest in & value of their goals
- sets reasonable expectations for support
- mutually disarming invitation -
@lettosprey @Linux_in_a_Bit When it comes to files, folders, installation, I agree with you. Those are basic operating skills for a PC. The problem is that Millennials are the only generation who got any education in that and kids have iPads for school rather than a computer lab now. It's been that way for like a decade. They are operating on phones their whole lives.
We take files and folders for granted. We also take doorknobs for granted, but without knowing what it was, would you think to twist it? That's where they are.
That's not your problem or their fault, but what are their options? Who's going to teach them? Going back to cars, if they've done nothing but hop a train their whole life and now they need to drive a car, who's going to do Driver's Ed? Because the schools said, "welp, cars exist now, so all the kids will grow up knowing how to drive them!" And then proceeded to give them all train vouchers.
It doesn't have to be you, but someone has to teach them.
@bluestarultor But that was kinda the premise of the post I replied to. People don't switch to linux because linux users "are not kind and helpful enough" - and my experience - that people don't really want to switch, they just use the "linux users are not helpful enough!" to justify staying with companies they know they should really leave.
So, if we "want to beat big tech" we need to "work for free"
Our "kid" is 30 years old, still does not know how to drive a car, manages fine without it. I taught him to use computers because I realized that would be essential knowledge.
That bit paid off.
We can make our society less dependent on tech, like it was not all that long ago. But people like the convenience it gives. We could build good, publicly funded solutions, but people don't want to pay.
I don't know what the solution is, but blaming linux users for not being "helpful and friendly enough" is not the answer to anything...
@Linux_in_a_Bit -
@bluestarultor But that was kinda the premise of the post I replied to. People don't switch to linux because linux users "are not kind and helpful enough" - and my experience - that people don't really want to switch, they just use the "linux users are not helpful enough!" to justify staying with companies they know they should really leave.
So, if we "want to beat big tech" we need to "work for free"
Our "kid" is 30 years old, still does not know how to drive a car, manages fine without it. I taught him to use computers because I realized that would be essential knowledge.
That bit paid off.
We can make our society less dependent on tech, like it was not all that long ago. But people like the convenience it gives. We could build good, publicly funded solutions, but people don't want to pay.
I don't know what the solution is, but blaming linux users for not being "helpful and friendly enough" is not the answer to anything...
@Linux_in_a_Bit@lettosprey If I had to be cheeky? I'd say the solution is to charge. Like, Xtra-PC exists and uses some flavor of bog-standard Linux I can't recall at the moment, but what you're paying for is 1) a thumb drive with it on it and 2) support. They managed to make a whole business model around it. And maybe that's where to push people rather than to something free where they expect free support. Because let me tell you, having worked help desk for 14 years now, I would not have put up with all I do for free.
The problem I think is if you're going to recommend Linux, that's immediately an "and you have feed it and water it and..." situation that people all too often do not take the responsibility for. So when people bitch about Win11, and someone says "Linux" and walks off, it's just making it worse for everyone, because people are smart enough to find someone and it sucks being "someone."
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@drdirtbag @brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit 100%
I feel like there should be a series of infographics on "How to actually help & encourage new Linux users" that includes "phrases & responses to avoid at all times".
Lots of well-meaning but poorly-equipped (& rarely trained) tech support, out there.
🧑
@GoodNewsGreyShoes@mastodon.art @brouhaha@mastodon.social @drdirtbag@mountains.social @Linux_in_a_Bit@infosec.exchange and you know, I think a lot of us aren't even used to there BEING an available manual. I'm used to it NOW, sort of, but when I compare the manuals that come with modern devices and software ("plug in" or "reboot") compared with ones for earlier devices ("here is how to deconstruct and reconstruct each piece of the device in explicit detail, combined with part numbers and specifications for individual parts")... let's just say it took me a while to get used to the idea that the manual had any value.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit +1 to all of this! Wikis, cryptic readmes, forums in github or discord, no, thanks! The documentation, of free, open-source projects, has long been a prblem for me.
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@bluestarultor But that was kinda the premise of the post I replied to. People don't switch to linux because linux users "are not kind and helpful enough" - and my experience - that people don't really want to switch, they just use the "linux users are not helpful enough!" to justify staying with companies they know they should really leave.
So, if we "want to beat big tech" we need to "work for free"
Our "kid" is 30 years old, still does not know how to drive a car, manages fine without it. I taught him to use computers because I realized that would be essential knowledge.
That bit paid off.
We can make our society less dependent on tech, like it was not all that long ago. But people like the convenience it gives. We could build good, publicly funded solutions, but people don't want to pay.
I don't know what the solution is, but blaming linux users for not being "helpful and friendly enough" is not the answer to anything...
@Linux_in_a_Bit@lettosprey @bluestarultor
I am not blaming Linux users for not being helpful enough.
I am blaming certain Linux users for being actively unhelpful.
There's a very, very big difference.The people it harms the most are actually people who've just switched to Linux, making it way harder for them to keep using Linux.
To put it another way, the problem is active, condescending gatekeeping; pushing away new people because they aren't good enough.
I see no way that behavior can ever be justified in the context of someone asking for help with Linux. -
@Linux_in_a_Bit I think this is called verbal abuse and Linux has a problem with bad management - "a fish starts stinking from the head".
RTFM means Read The Fucking Manual, which is a triple verbal abuse:
1) Ordering, which is verbal abuse (older version of Wikipedia: Verbal abuse)
2) The word "fucking", which is a curse word
3) Abusive anger. The phrase obviously conveys anger. Anger is an emotion which belongs to a situation where someone behaves unfair. But the user asking for help does not behave unfair.Also another problem is that Linux is, in my experience, simply unreliable. When I boot up my computer, sometimes:
1) X doesn't come up, stays in text mode
2) X comes up with the screen at wrong smaller resolution and the picture is in one corner of the screen
3) Mouse doesn't work
4) Keyboard doesn't work
5) Keyboard has wrong repetition rate
6) When inserting a USB peripheral, USB hard disk disconnects and the system crashes
7) Manpages are missing important information
Fails to update between major versions with guarantee of functionality
9) System freezes to a grinding halt instead of managing the RAM resource when RAM demand from programs exceeds RAM size
10) Sound doesn't workAlso I would say 80% of solutions from Google don't work and 40% of them don't work and screw up your system and don't contain information how to reverse the changes after you did them and realized they don't work.
Asking "Have you tried Google?" is like a car mechanic asking a customer "have you tried unauthorized, possibly irreversibly damaging tampering with your engine according to the advice of a random, likely incompetent, bystander?"
@clock @Linux_in_a_Bit recently set up a Debian 13.3.0 with kde ui. Very easy, everything works as expected. For solving advanced problems I got excellent help from mistral.ai.
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@GoodNewsGreyShoes@mastodon.art @brouhaha@mastodon.social @drdirtbag@mountains.social @Linux_in_a_Bit@infosec.exchange and you know, I think a lot of us aren't even used to there BEING an available manual. I'm used to it NOW, sort of, but when I compare the manuals that come with modern devices and software ("plug in" or "reboot") compared with ones for earlier devices ("here is how to deconstruct and reconstruct each piece of the device in explicit detail, combined with part numbers and specifications for individual parts")... let's just say it took me a while to get used to the idea that the manual had any value.
@GoodNewsGreyShoes @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit @aud
I suspect most computer users today would be amazed to learn that Microsoft Word and Excel originally came with manuals. Not only that, the manuals were actually pretty good. -
@GoodNewsGreyShoes @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit @aud
I suspect most computer users today would be amazed to learn that Microsoft Word and Excel originally came with manuals. Not only that, the manuals were actually pretty good.@GoodNewsGreyShoes @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit @aud
At some point, Microsoft must have decided that writing manuals was just an unnecessary expense, and that the help file, and the availability of third-party "Excel for Maroons" guides, was sufficient.
The entire software industry followed suit, even in cases where no third-party book exists. Next the software developers assumed that users can get answers from other users via a search engine, and that's going just great.
#enshittification -
@Linux_in_a_Bit
Make Linux Kindness a Thing@matera @Linux_in_a_Bit Wasn't that the point of starting Ubuntu, according to their marketing back then? People really liked that idea becaus the problem described in the OP was as present just as much in the 2000s. Has anything changed? How do you change it?
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Testify.
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@clock @Linux_in_a_Bit recently set up a Debian 13.3.0 with kde ui. Very easy, everything works as expected. For solving advanced problems I got excellent help from mistral.ai.
@heri @Linux_in_a_Bit The fact that 1 out of 500 Linux distros happened to work as expected for short time ("recently") in your particular scenario doesn't help the other users for which it doesn't work.
A product is reliable when it works reliable for everyone in any scenario, not just for one person in one scenario.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Putting politeness aside (yes, that is an issue), there is complication: Those who write that software like to write that software but do not like that much doing support work. (Plus it's quite a drag: they already gave away lots of work, no time to give away other kind of work.)
Hence opportunity to those who are not able to write software but are able to help others use it: write documentation, answers support forums, coordinate with developers, etc.
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@lettosprey @bluestarultor
I am not blaming Linux users for not being helpful enough.
I am blaming certain Linux users for being actively unhelpful.
There's a very, very big difference.The people it harms the most are actually people who've just switched to Linux, making it way harder for them to keep using Linux.
To put it another way, the problem is active, condescending gatekeeping; pushing away new people because they aren't good enough.
I see no way that behavior can ever be justified in the context of someone asking for help with Linux.@Linux_in_a_Bit As others have pointed out, this is the case for most anything, in no way unique to Linux.
I have been told I am too stupid and "using windows wrong".
So I don't buy the argument that this is the reason. People need it to be "effortless", and when it isn't, they cling to big tech, despite knowing the issues connected to doing so, using the "evil linux people" as the reason.
We see the same with art and AI now. People know AI is problematic.
"I want art, but it is too complicated to create. You cannot expect me to have the time to invest in it like you artists do, and I don't have the money to pay you what you ask. Since you don't provide the art I need, I have no other choice than to use AI. You are gatekeeping art, so AI, despite being problematic, is the only option available for me"
It's the same shit. Big-tech has made people dependent on simplicity at "no cost and effort", but rather than acknowledging this, we aim at and blame those that have the skills we don't.
