Something that icks me regarding the online #ageverification discourse that we see today is that everyone seems to assume that giving privacy-intrusive or PII datais the only way to have age verification online.
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Something that icks me regarding the online #ageverification discourse that we see today is that everyone seems to assume that giving privacy-intrusive or PII datais the only way to have age verification online. However, we already know how to make age verification where:
- The government doesn't know on which sites you register or give access to third parties to PII
- The website to which you register doesn't need to interact with the government or any third party
- The website doesn't know your age, just that you're over 18
- No third party is required
The two things you need is a digital ID system and zero-knowledge proofs. That's it
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Something that icks me regarding the online #ageverification discourse that we see today is that everyone seems to assume that giving privacy-intrusive or PII datais the only way to have age verification online. However, we already know how to make age verification where:
- The government doesn't know on which sites you register or give access to third parties to PII
- The website to which you register doesn't need to interact with the government or any third party
- The website doesn't know your age, just that you're over 18
- No third party is required
The two things you need is a digital ID system and zero-knowledge proofs. That's it
@res260 no, and no again!
- The Problem is not #technical, but #social, and demanding any kind if #ID'ing under any pretense is wrong.
- "#AgeVerification" is just another #FalsePretense for this!
Not to mention any "Age Verification" REQUIRES breaking anonymity if it wants to be at least more effective than a Paywall…
- It's like #ElectronicVoting:
- You don't do it, and in fact, #Germany banned #VotingMachines!
- And the amassing of #PII is not a coincidence but desired effect!
- Espechally the #abuse of it!
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@res260 no, and no again!
- The Problem is not #technical, but #social, and demanding any kind if #ID'ing under any pretense is wrong.
- "#AgeVerification" is just another #FalsePretense for this!
Not to mention any "Age Verification" REQUIRES breaking anonymity if it wants to be at least more effective than a Paywall…
- It's like #ElectronicVoting:
- You don't do it, and in fact, #Germany banned #VotingMachines!
- And the amassing of #PII is not a coincidence but desired effect!
- Espechally the #abuse of it!
@kkarhan It kind of looks like you did not read my post at all. Except the first point, your other points are simply false. I'll gladly engage more if you're interested, but please read and understand the original post before replying at least
- The Problem is not #technical, but #social, and demanding any kind if #ID'ing under any pretense is wrong.
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@kkarhan It kind of looks like you did not read my post at all. Except the first point, your other points are simply false. I'll gladly engage more if you're interested, but please read and understand the original post before replying at least
@kkarhan the bullet point and the link to another toot confused me, what I meant to say was that you can be against age verification for moral reason, I understand that and actually support most of this way of thinking. However, it is dishonest to pretend that the only way to do age verification is whatever we have right now. I am against that because of the abuse risk that are very well documented, as you pointed out.
But there is a way to do age verification without having these PIIs being thrown around and all this tracking. This is a fact and a lot of people are either not aware of it or are ignoring it on purpose
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@kkarhan It kind of looks like you did not read my post at all. Except the first point, your other points are simply false. I'll gladly engage more if you're interested, but please read and understand the original post before replying at least
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@paige @res260 it's not a hardline, but a basic and fundamental #HumanRight to access information.
- If you can't be assed to understand that "#AgeVerification" will be used to commit #QueerGenocide and #Censorship, then you are either in complete denial of history or criminally naive when it comes to the #Cyberfascism that is being introduced here.
- I wish to be wrong, but the fact is that I am not!
So yes, demanding any form of #ID is irreedeemable #fascist shite, no matter the pretense!
- Anything else is normalizing the #CorrosionStrategy on #HumanRights & #CivilRights!
- If you can't be assed to understand that "#AgeVerification" will be used to commit #QueerGenocide and #Censorship, then you are either in complete denial of history or criminally naive when it comes to the #Cyberfascism that is being introduced here.
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@kkarhan the bullet point and the link to another toot confused me, what I meant to say was that you can be against age verification for moral reason, I understand that and actually support most of this way of thinking. However, it is dishonest to pretend that the only way to do age verification is whatever we have right now. I am against that because of the abuse risk that are very well documented, as you pointed out.
But there is a way to do age verification without having these PIIs being thrown around and all this tracking. This is a fact and a lot of people are either not aware of it or are ignoring it on purpose
@res260 Well, I do provide sources and context.
If that's too hard to follow, maybe consider shutting up and stop spouting #TechFetishist|ic BS!
Kevin Karhan :verified: (@kkarhan@infosec.space)
@paige@canadiancivil.com @res260@infosec.exchange it's not a hardline, but a basic and fundamental #HumanRight to access information. - If you can't be assed to understand that *"#AgeVerification"* will be used to commit #QueerGenocide and #Censorship, then you are either in complete denial of history or [criminally naive](https://lgbtqia.space/@alice/116111471700029651) when it comes to the #Cyberfascism that is being [introduced here.](https://mastodon.online/@mullvadnet/116087059413472819) - I wish to be wrong, but the fact is that I am not! So yes, demanding any form of #ID is [irreedeemable](https://todon.nl/@PensioNien/116113124361551837) #fascist shite, no matter the pretense! - Anything else is normalizing the #CorrosionStrategy on #HumanRights & #CivilRights!
Infosec.Space (infosec.space)
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Something that icks me regarding the online #ageverification discourse that we see today is that everyone seems to assume that giving privacy-intrusive or PII datais the only way to have age verification online. However, we already know how to make age verification where:
- The government doesn't know on which sites you register or give access to third parties to PII
- The website to which you register doesn't need to interact with the government or any third party
- The website doesn't know your age, just that you're over 18
- No third party is required
The two things you need is a digital ID system and zero-knowledge proofs. That's it
@res260 while in theory it is possible to sort of infer the age of a person through indirect systems, by my knowledge in practice this is not how this is ever done.
If you've followed the whole Persona debacle then you know exactly what will happen, and that's what everyone's understandably upset about.
Not to mention:
- by my knowledge these indirect systems are still tracking you
- if you want ANYONE to be ID verified, you have to verify EVERYONE
- Govts often try broaden the scope of data. -
R relay@relay.infosec.exchange shared this topicR relay@relay.an.exchange shared this topicR relay@relay.mycrowd.ca shared this topic
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Something that icks me regarding the online #ageverification discourse that we see today is that everyone seems to assume that giving privacy-intrusive or PII datais the only way to have age verification online. However, we already know how to make age verification where:
- The government doesn't know on which sites you register or give access to third parties to PII
- The website to which you register doesn't need to interact with the government or any third party
- The website doesn't know your age, just that you're over 18
- No third party is required
The two things you need is a digital ID system and zero-knowledge proofs. That's it
@res260 in theory, yes, but I'm yet to see a solution that looks like something I'd use. Afaik, even the planned EUDI will give the way too much information to the certification agency.
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@anselmschueler @paige @res260 no, it is inherently not!
- And if you don't believe me, look at how a 13yr old can circumvent it.
- See #AVS with #CreditCards…
- And if you don't believe me, look at how a 13yr old can circumvent it.
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@anselmschueler @paige @res260 Don't 'splain on me, #TechBro!
- We all know how #ZK-SNARKs work since #CryptoBros used #TornadoCash!
- Your #TechFetishism is just excusing #Cyberfascism!
"#KYC" and any"#AgeVerification" IS the illicit activity!
- If you think otherwise, just imagine all the ways it can (and thus will!) be #abused!
- Cuz you can already see that in #Russia, #KSA, #NorthKorea, "P.R." #China, #Turkey, #Australia and other places.
All you'll achieve with some #TechnoFetishist solution is #paywalling access!
- We all know how #ZK-SNARKs work since #CryptoBros used #TornadoCash!
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@anselmschueler @kkarhan @res260 this is a fun way to start the week!
Here's what I'd propose, we all just mute whoever we think is being a dick, and if in 30 days we decide that this is a good way to spend our time we can get back into arguing if wanting some sort of standard mechanism to check who someone is online makes you a genocidal fascist. -
@res260 while in theory it is possible to sort of infer the age of a person through indirect systems, by my knowledge in practice this is not how this is ever done.
If you've followed the whole Persona debacle then you know exactly what will happen, and that's what everyone's understandably upset about.
Not to mention:
- by my knowledge these indirect systems are still tracking you
- if you want ANYONE to be ID verified, you have to verify EVERYONE
- Govts often try broaden the scope of data.@anthropy Thanks for the polite reply.
I am not talking about infering age through data. I am talking about using Zero-Knowledge proofs (like ZK-SNARKS, but there are others) paired with a digital ID system (the government already know your age, so no new information is required) to generate a proof (can be a QR code for example). This code contains the proof that
- You have a digital ID account with X government
- You are 18+
It contains no PII whatsoever. The gov just knows that you generated a proof, but not where you used said proof. The website knows who issued the proof, that you're 18+, but doesn't know anything else about you.
This requires zero third-party, so the risk of tracking is reduced greatly, and cybersecurity-wise it's much better than gathering a ton of information and giving them to third parties.
