As an autistic woman, who experienced SA herself and as an intersectional feminist, I reject the trope that most men are monsters, that men are inherently bad and women inherently good.
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@KaCi
My last job was in a predominantly male environment. The problems I had with males were as expected. The damage done by a few of the women (I trusted) was more hurtful because I was not prepared for that.@autoperipatetikos @KaCi Unfortunately, one strategy to survive in such an environment is being "holier than the Pope". Women in male-dominated environments will frequently turn on other women, foreigners in environments dominated by natives will talk about how bad emigration is, Jews will happily accept a token position in an antisemitic environment by "criticizing Israel" and so on...
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@DziadekMick @KaCi Black people have been calling out this power dynamic for a long time. More often than not it's a white woman who calls the cops on them, which can be very dangerous. Women also have their place in the hierarchy, and they abuse power just like everybody else. Reducing it all to gender is a simplistic approach that leads nowhere, it's really about power.
@Newstrujew @DziadekMick
Exactly. The perspectives of black women were extremly helpful and necessary for my understanding of intersectionality and my own feelings and experiences. -
@Newstrujew @DziadekMick
Exactly. The perspectives of black women were extremly helpful and necessary for my understanding of intersectionality and my own feelings and experiences.@KaCi @Newstrujew @DziadekMick But in general, its very important to realise that all of these discourses on group-based discriminations are generalisations and hugely context dependent. Whats true in one context isnt necessarily true in another, and there are a lot of aspects to social dynamics so reducing anything to one or a few axis of power without aknowledging that this is only a generalisation can do harm.
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@KaCi @Newstrujew @DziadekMick But in general, its very important to realise that all of these discourses on group-based discriminations are generalisations and hugely context dependent. Whats true in one context isnt necessarily true in another, and there are a lot of aspects to social dynamics so reducing anything to one or a few axis of power without aknowledging that this is only a generalisation can do harm.
@KaCi @Newstrujew @DziadekMick Pretty much all talking points about concrete constellations of group-based discrimination can be abused, i've seen the fact that there is a racist dynamic of white women accusing black men of sexual violence used to defend a black cis man repeatedly sexually harassing two white trans women. I have seen the fact that there is a transmisogynist dynamic of people accusing trans women of
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sexual violence used to defend a perpetrator of sexual violence who was also a trans woman. I think i remember the black woman who coined the use of the term "Karen" later disavowed its use since she percieved it as being used as a cover for misogyny by others.
None of this is in disagreement with OP, i just want to warn people of moving from uncritically believing in one generalisation to believing in another. And that these discourses themselves can be
weaponised, so you really have to keep thinking and not overuse templates.
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@KaCi @Newstrujew @DziadekMick Pretty much all talking points about concrete constellations of group-based discrimination can be abused, i've seen the fact that there is a racist dynamic of white women accusing black men of sexual violence used to defend a black cis man repeatedly sexually harassing two white trans women. I have seen the fact that there is a transmisogynist dynamic of people accusing trans women of
sexual violence used to defend a perpetrator of sexual violence who was also a trans woman. I think i remember the black woman who coined the use of the term "Karen" later disavowed its use since she percieved it as being used as a cover for misogyny by others.
None of this is in disagreement with OP, i just want to warn people of moving from uncritically believing in one generalisation to believing in another. And that these discourses themselves can be
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weaponised, so you really have to keep thinking and not overuse templates.
Also, being marginalised and being a good person isnt linked. You can be marginalised and generally act shitty, and you can act shitty and still be marginalised.
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As an autistic woman, who experienced SA herself and as an intersectional feminist, I reject the trope that most men are monsters, that men are inherently bad and women inherently good. This approach is the opposite of helpful, it’s highly problematic for all genders and leads to the terf, fascist, religious extremism pipeline.
It’s not the gender, that corrupts people, it’s power.
For that reason, Feminism and Anarchism are strongly intertwined. Because we are not talking about physical power here. If you can train a huge dog, that could kill you with a bite, not to touch his food until you allow him to do so, we as a society can teach men not to rape a woman during her sleep.
The problem is, that we don’t do that. Living in patriarchy means, that a poor black girl has to take more responsibility and is held more accountable than a rich white man.
Patriarchy limits men’s possibilities for personal growth, it makes most of them become weak cowards, who exploit women and are easy to control. That is why oppressors created this system in the first place. This is what intersectional feminists mean, when they say, that men suffer under patriarchy too.
It also means, that not all women are safe for other women. As a marginalized, autistic woman, I might feel safer with an autistic man, than with an allistic woman. Not only because internalized misogyny is a thing, but because patriarchy is a hierarchical system, that gives some women power over others, it makes them compliant.
For me personally it means that despite all the bullshit men did to me, women were the ones, who deeply traumatized me over and over again. It means, that I will choose the people I trust not based on their gender, but based on their ability for critical thinking, personal growth and the power structures inside and outside of my relationship with them.
@KaCi This is a refreshing take, especially as a man. I've seen from the inside how easily I could have done things, how close I came at various times to monstrous acts against vulnerable people, mostly female.
I can't honestly say why I didn't overstep the line, so it's hard to say why others do. There are many possible explanations.
You've articulated what I once tried but was not received for obvious reasons.
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@Tamtam
I'm not sure about that. One of the problems is how to understand abusen and recognise trauma. Men's abuse trends to be physical and therefore apparent. Women's tends to be emotional, and sometimes very hard to recognise particularly when the person affected is their child because the child cannot recognise it as abuse and is dependent for survival on the mother. -
@KaCi Thanks for the explanation 🫶
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As an autistic woman, who experienced SA herself and as an intersectional feminist, I reject the trope that most men are monsters, that men are inherently bad and women inherently good. This approach is the opposite of helpful, it’s highly problematic for all genders and leads to the terf, fascist, religious extremism pipeline.
It’s not the gender, that corrupts people, it’s power.
For that reason, Feminism and Anarchism are strongly intertwined. Because we are not talking about physical power here. If you can train a huge dog, that could kill you with a bite, not to touch his food until you allow him to do so, we as a society can teach men not to rape a woman during her sleep.
The problem is, that we don’t do that. Living in patriarchy means, that a poor black girl has to take more responsibility and is held more accountable than a rich white man.
Patriarchy limits men’s possibilities for personal growth, it makes most of them become weak cowards, who exploit women and are easy to control. That is why oppressors created this system in the first place. This is what intersectional feminists mean, when they say, that men suffer under patriarchy too.
It also means, that not all women are safe for other women. As a marginalized, autistic woman, I might feel safer with an autistic man, than with an allistic woman. Not only because internalized misogyny is a thing, but because patriarchy is a hierarchical system, that gives some women power over others, it makes them compliant.
For me personally it means that despite all the bullshit men did to me, women were the ones, who deeply traumatized me over and over again. It means, that I will choose the people I trust not based on their gender, but based on their ability for critical thinking, personal growth and the power structures inside and outside of my relationship with them.
@KaCi
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I was raised in a family where it was all about gender and feminism and men were bad and all that, I’m male - but I’m Autistic and gender wasn’t actually the binary that’s been killing me, it’s been neurotype. The NT women in my family were innocently punching up on my white male ass, we all thought, but turns out, it was less that than NT people who happened to be women punching down on me who happened to be male.
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#ActuallyAutistic #ND @autistics -
@Tamtam @autoperipatetikos @KaCi
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I think it’s spanking, the punishment cult that causes hate and othering - but that’s everywhere - so “default,” is close enough, since the punishment cult seems to be a default.
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@KaCi
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I was raised in a family where it was all about gender and feminism and men were bad and all that, I’m male - but I’m Autistic and gender wasn’t actually the binary that’s been killing me, it’s been neurotype. The NT women in my family were innocently punching up on my white male ass, we all thought, but turns out, it was less that than NT people who happened to be women punching down on me who happened to be male.
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#ActuallyAutistic #ND @autistics@KaCi @autistics
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NT people punch down, men, women, even children.
It’s Sapolsky’s deflection, passing the abuse on is how they feel better.
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“Both men and women,” doesn’t mean it’s just everyone, it’s still a binary. I found a reason not to do that, not to unload on someone smaller, on anyone, I think I said it out loud to myself not long after puberty, I made a conscious, divergent and I guess stupid decision to absorb any abuse I took and not to abuse in turn. I didn’t know it was divergence, but it literally sure was.🥹
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No-one noticed, no-one believes, because that’s just not a thing to NT people, it has to be a lie in their minds, or at least they feel safer treating it that way (because some surely will be lying about it).
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This is a case where their idea seems true, they are still baboons (I know, chimps, but Sapolsky did baboons) on the inside, they see a straight line, always this way, but what’s missing in that simple picture is me, us. Humanity couldn’t have had the long prehistory it does if we didn’t stop that baboon shit at some point and learn cooperation.
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Them being this way now is a new adaptation again.
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No-one thinks this but me, so grain of salt. -
@Newstrujew @DziadekMick
Exactly. The perspectives of black women were extremly helpful and necessary for my understanding of intersectionality and my own feelings and experiences.@KaCi @Newstrujew @DziadekMick this is the kyriarchy at work (I recently learned this term), where you can be oppressed by one facet, but get a relative privilege from another. Keeps us all split up because most people don’t think about the intersectionality of it.
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As an autistic woman, who experienced SA herself and as an intersectional feminist, I reject the trope that most men are monsters, that men are inherently bad and women inherently good. This approach is the opposite of helpful, it’s highly problematic for all genders and leads to the terf, fascist, religious extremism pipeline.
It’s not the gender, that corrupts people, it’s power.
For that reason, Feminism and Anarchism are strongly intertwined. Because we are not talking about physical power here. If you can train a huge dog, that could kill you with a bite, not to touch his food until you allow him to do so, we as a society can teach men not to rape a woman during her sleep.
The problem is, that we don’t do that. Living in patriarchy means, that a poor black girl has to take more responsibility and is held more accountable than a rich white man.
Patriarchy limits men’s possibilities for personal growth, it makes most of them become weak cowards, who exploit women and are easy to control. That is why oppressors created this system in the first place. This is what intersectional feminists mean, when they say, that men suffer under patriarchy too.
It also means, that not all women are safe for other women. As a marginalized, autistic woman, I might feel safer with an autistic man, than with an allistic woman. Not only because internalized misogyny is a thing, but because patriarchy is a hierarchical system, that gives some women power over others, it makes them compliant.
For me personally it means that despite all the bullshit men did to me, women were the ones, who deeply traumatized me over and over again. It means, that I will choose the people I trust not based on their gender, but based on their ability for critical thinking, personal growth and the power structures inside and outside of my relationship with them.
@KaCi The #bonobo is sometimes cited as an example of what a female-dominant human society would be like. An inconvenient primatological fact: while the amiable bonobo is indeed female-dominant, so is the notoriously vicious #rhesus macaque. From the Wikipedia article about them:
"Top-ranking female rhesus monkeys are known to sexually coerce unreceptive males and also physically injure them, biting off digits and damaging their genitals."
Charming.
Getting back to humans: I was physically abused as a child. The vast majority of it, and 100% of the worst of it, was done to me BY WOMEN with their own hands. That hasn't made me a misogynist, but it HAS made me skeptical, to say the least, of ideological fantasy panoramas of female-dominant utopias.
Our ENTIRE SPECIES could use improvement.
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@KaCi The #bonobo is sometimes cited as an example of what a female-dominant human society would be like. An inconvenient primatological fact: while the amiable bonobo is indeed female-dominant, so is the notoriously vicious #rhesus macaque. From the Wikipedia article about them:
"Top-ranking female rhesus monkeys are known to sexually coerce unreceptive males and also physically injure them, biting off digits and damaging their genitals."
Charming.
Getting back to humans: I was physically abused as a child. The vast majority of it, and 100% of the worst of it, was done to me BY WOMEN with their own hands. That hasn't made me a misogynist, but it HAS made me skeptical, to say the least, of ideological fantasy panoramas of female-dominant utopias.
Our ENTIRE SPECIES could use improvement.
@dedicto
There's a difference between a matriarchy and women, who carry the intergenerational trauma of thousands of years in patriarchy though. In my post I am referring to the latter. -
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