For the past year or so, I’ve been using and enjoying the search engine Kagi.
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@inthehands What's most disappointing here is the lack of seeing how this clashes with #Kagi 's supposed mission of "humanizing the web".
You can't do that while pretending ethics aren't part of it. Or by defending your business relationship with someone who denies basic human rights to some.
I think it'd be recoverable for Kagi if they end up revisiting the issue, but right now, I'm disappointed a.f.
@larsmb @inthehands They've announced changes on their Discord, which are limited to: allow users to filter their result sources, potentially not pay Brave and instead ask for free API access.
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@larsmb @inthehands They've announced changes on their Discord, which are limited to: allow users to filter their result sources, potentially not pay Brave and instead ask for free API access.
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@inthehands @larsmb me neither, but I suppose I'm not principalled enough because I did return to Kagi, because, for me, nothing competes. I've tried Searxng, Startpage, DDG. results are just worse.
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@blakereid
Honestly? If you have a Mac, just use Safari. It’s excellent.People are up at arms about institutional stuff at Mozilla, but Firefox is still a great choice.
EDIT: oops, you explicitly said Chromium
People using Vivaldi really seem to like it a lot. It’s Chromium.
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@inthehands Kind of in agreement. However, I hope they are going to think about the issues now. It'd have been best if they had done so before, obviously ...
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@inthehands Kind of in agreement. However, I hope they are going to think about the issues now. It'd have been best if they had done so before, obviously ...
@larsmb @kzhe
What’s turned me off is the incapacity for thought. Whatever they decide about Brave now that they’re under pressure, I just don’t see a company that’s ready to play with the grown-ups.Here’s the thing: the Brave issue is relatively minor compared to the ethical questions a search company is going to face. And they’ll often face those questions out of public sight, and free from public pressure.
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@blakereid
Ah! I’d actually been thinking to give Vivaldi a whirl myself this week for •exactly• that purpose. -
@larsmb @kzhe
What’s turned me off is the incapacity for thought. Whatever they decide about Brave now that they’re under pressure, I just don’t see a company that’s ready to play with the grown-ups.Here’s the thing: the Brave issue is relatively minor compared to the ethical questions a search company is going to face. And they’ll often face those questions out of public sight, and free from public pressure.
@inthehands Yes
But I'm not sure I'm trusting others more either.
I do fully understand your points though and appreciate them. I'm just not yet sure what the truly better option is for me.
(I signed up very recently and am paid up for the month anyway, so I'll ponder until renewal)
@kzhe -
@blakereid
Its customizability is hard to beat. And having a rendering engine that’s different from the ground up is a healthy thing! -
@SkipHuffman @alter_kaker @CptSuperlative It is of course against FB’s business interests to create lots of out-pointing links, so I imagine this is not accidental. The “web” in “world wide web” runs against the interests of a whole lot of businesses.
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Search is a wasteland right now. Alas. And there are no good choices.
But look, if I’m going to •pay• a company money for search, it needs to be a company run by ethically mature people. If and when Kagi is run by such people, maybe I’ll give that paid plan another go. For now, well, maybe these childish people will blunder their way to maturity and maybe they’ll just blunder, but either way, they won’t be doing it on my dime.
/end
ADDENDUM 1/2: Kagi is apparently now flailing around trying to find a quick and dirty fix for the uproar: “maybe you can disable Brave in your search results or we’ll try to make their services free or something” etc etc.
My deal-killing objection was not actually them using Brave’s services, but rather their •unwillingness to think• about the underlying issues in doing so. I can’t say that this “we’ll let you cover your eyes too” sort of response addresses my concerns at all.
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ADDENDUM 1/2: Kagi is apparently now flailing around trying to find a quick and dirty fix for the uproar: “maybe you can disable Brave in your search results or we’ll try to make their services free or something” etc etc.
My deal-killing objection was not actually them using Brave’s services, but rather their •unwillingness to think• about the underlying issues in doing so. I can’t say that this “we’ll let you cover your eyes too” sort of response addresses my concerns at all.
ADDENDUM 2/2: A search engine is going to face some of the toughest ethical problems a tech company can face. And they’ll face most of those problems ••out of public sight••.
I’m interested in the people, their thought process, their temperament. How do they engage with ethical questions? Perfection is impossible, but will they at least •try•? Do they have the capacity to try? Do they even give a shit?
Or do they actively •refuse• to give a shit and call that a virtue? Apparently so for Kagi.
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@apophis @dangerdyke @mia Based on other replies, there are some (maybe milder) red flags about their leadership too, but they’re in my trial mix for the time being.
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ADDENDUM 1/2: Kagi is apparently now flailing around trying to find a quick and dirty fix for the uproar: “maybe you can disable Brave in your search results or we’ll try to make their services free or something” etc etc.
My deal-killing objection was not actually them using Brave’s services, but rather their •unwillingness to think• about the underlying issues in doing so. I can’t say that this “we’ll let you cover your eyes too” sort of response addresses my concerns at all.
Let's see if you become the bad guy for "politicizing" it. It feels I've been waiting some time to hear this voice expressed, thank you. Even as I blundered through the right-adjacent valley, wondering how all the techies can be OK with this, my response has been typically Gen X, distancing, ironic, witnessing... our choices must lead to another way.
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@valentyn
Valentijn, you’ve really missed the central line of thought of the thread. Slow down. Read better. What specifically do I identify as the reason for canceling service? It’s not “rejecting people.” What is it?@inthehands I think I did understand your concern about ethics well. I'm just not sure I understand... wait, I'm starting to repeat myself here
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ADDENDUM 2/2: A search engine is going to face some of the toughest ethical problems a tech company can face. And they’ll face most of those problems ••out of public sight••.
I’m interested in the people, their thought process, their temperament. How do they engage with ethical questions? Perfection is impossible, but will they at least •try•? Do they have the capacity to try? Do they even give a shit?
Or do they actively •refuse• to give a shit and call that a virtue? Apparently so for Kagi.
Part of why I have always been a (self-serving) proponent of humanities folks in tech - we deal with humans, not machines. I'm glad to have come to the career when it was simple to be a self-taught software person.
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ADDENDUM 1/2: Kagi is apparently now flailing around trying to find a quick and dirty fix for the uproar: “maybe you can disable Brave in your search results or we’ll try to make their services free or something” etc etc.
My deal-killing objection was not actually them using Brave’s services, but rather their •unwillingness to think• about the underlying issues in doing so. I can’t say that this “we’ll let you cover your eyes too” sort of response addresses my concerns at all.
@inthehands
The notion that an independent search engine is supposed to be apolitical is so misguided I unsubscribed. Thanks for pointing this out to me. -
Part of why I have always been a (self-serving) proponent of humanities folks in tech - we deal with humans, not machines. I'm glad to have come to the career when it was simple to be a self-taught software person.
@grechaw Indeed. And I’m a complete weirdo who believes there is zero contradiction in being both a tech person and a humanities person.
(You might enjoy my pinned thread on taking a course about the letters of Paul.)
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@SkipHuffman @realn2s @JessTheUnstill Nothing endures but change and typos.
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@SkipHuffman @inthehands @CptSuperlative
The question that I was asking myself was what is different about the internet today from the internet in the late 90s or early 2000s during the heyday of web rings, and I also asked myself what kind of technologies do we have to update those things in a way that compliments and mitigates the ways that the internet is different today. I'm not a big expert at this kind of design thinking but I wanted to try
