For the past year or so, I’ve been using and enjoying the search engine Kagi.
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@inthehands I'm not sure I understand the part where you start rejecting people because they reject people. For me, the more general view is to hope to include everyone. That's not possible, I know. But in order to be inclusive, I feel an obligation to try to be inclusive. Yeah, that includes idiots, bigots, users of Kagi and haters of it too and also people who just don't care. I hope you feel welcome, too.
@valentyn @inthehands
> I'm not sure I understand the part where you start rejecting people because they reject peoplelook up "paradox of tolerance".
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My dude, politics were deeply intertwined with tech long before I wrote my first line of code back in 1982. You don’t get to opt out. That choice isn’t even on the table. You interact with humans, you interact with politics.
Vlad’s post is a historically ignorant, pants-on-head-stupid answer to a serious question. When I read it, I hear, “We’re not ethically mature enough to think about our social responsibility, so we’ve given ourselves permission to take no responsibility at all.”
5/
My favourite tech-in-politics is from early 19th century. It was against custom to work on Sundays -- even tending your home garden might have been verboten -- but it was illogical to shut down the steam engines for one day a week, so if you wanted to keep your work, you came to work when the roster asked.
Later they "compromised" and gave half a day free.
(In agriculture, divisions between work and free time were not as strick.)
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@valentyn @inthehands
> I'm not sure I understand the part where you start rejecting people because they reject peoplelook up "paradox of tolerance".
@noodlejetski @inthehands being intolerant to intolerance isn't the same as being intolerant to people being intolerant. Also, Popper talked about society as a whole. I just don't think rejection of certain humans helps society.
Although I'm not sure if that's still helpful once a society already has become intolerant.
Intolerance towards indifference just doesn't help indifference, it will only help intolerance.
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What I found was _not_ a thoughtful, careful response. What I found was the founder of Kagi saying:
“Politics finding its way into tech is one of the reason we do not have innovation any more.”
Reconsider your partnership with Brave - Kagi Feedback
Brave, as you know, is led by Brendan Eich. s homophobia is so disgusting that he was forced to resign as the leader...
(kagifeedback.org)
Well shit. That is the reddest of red flags.
4/
@inthehands The other time I hear people roll out that tired bullshit placing ethics and political awareness in opposition to innovation is when they're whinging about DEI programs. Agreed - there is no flag redder.
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@jollyorc Another ex-Kagi user here. I'm trying out Mojeek and also using DuckDuckGo at times. Not as nice an answer as Kagi was, but no affiliation with Brave.
@jeridansky @jollyorc I’m giving Mojeek a go too. Also trying out Startpage but not sure of their history/affiliations.
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@inthehands I'm not sure I understand the part where you start rejecting people because they reject people. For me, the more general view is to hope to include everyone. That's not possible, I know. But in order to be inclusive, I feel an obligation to try to be inclusive. Yeah, that includes idiots, bigots, users of Kagi and haters of it too and also people who just don't care. I hope you feel welcome, too.
@valentyn
Valentijn, you’ve really missed the central line of thought of the thread. Slow down. Read better. What specifically do I identify as the reason for canceling service? It’s not “rejecting people.” What is it? -
@unpetitindien @inthehands alas, that doesn't return any hit on my first three (admittedly esoteric) search terms
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@inthehands What's most disappointing here is the lack of seeing how this clashes with #Kagi 's supposed mission of "humanizing the web".
You can't do that while pretending ethics aren't part of it. Or by defending your business relationship with someone who denies basic human rights to some.
I think it'd be recoverable for Kagi if they end up revisiting the issue, but right now, I'm disappointed a.f.
@larsmb @inthehands They've announced changes on their Discord, which are limited to: allow users to filter their result sources, potentially not pay Brave and instead ask for free API access.
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@larsmb @inthehands They've announced changes on their Discord, which are limited to: allow users to filter their result sources, potentially not pay Brave and instead ask for free API access.
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@inthehands @larsmb me neither, but I suppose I'm not principalled enough because I did return to Kagi, because, for me, nothing competes. I've tried Searxng, Startpage, DDG. results are just worse.
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@blakereid
Honestly? If you have a Mac, just use Safari. It’s excellent.People are up at arms about institutional stuff at Mozilla, but Firefox is still a great choice.
EDIT: oops, you explicitly said Chromium
People using Vivaldi really seem to like it a lot. It’s Chromium.
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@inthehands Kind of in agreement. However, I hope they are going to think about the issues now. It'd have been best if they had done so before, obviously ...
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@inthehands Kind of in agreement. However, I hope they are going to think about the issues now. It'd have been best if they had done so before, obviously ...
@larsmb @kzhe
What’s turned me off is the incapacity for thought. Whatever they decide about Brave now that they’re under pressure, I just don’t see a company that’s ready to play with the grown-ups.Here’s the thing: the Brave issue is relatively minor compared to the ethical questions a search company is going to face. And they’ll often face those questions out of public sight, and free from public pressure.
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@blakereid
Ah! I’d actually been thinking to give Vivaldi a whirl myself this week for •exactly• that purpose. -
@larsmb @kzhe
What’s turned me off is the incapacity for thought. Whatever they decide about Brave now that they’re under pressure, I just don’t see a company that’s ready to play with the grown-ups.Here’s the thing: the Brave issue is relatively minor compared to the ethical questions a search company is going to face. And they’ll often face those questions out of public sight, and free from public pressure.
@inthehands Yes
But I'm not sure I'm trusting others more either.
I do fully understand your points though and appreciate them. I'm just not yet sure what the truly better option is for me.
(I signed up very recently and am paid up for the month anyway, so I'll ponder until renewal)
@kzhe -
@blakereid
Its customizability is hard to beat. And having a rendering engine that’s different from the ground up is a healthy thing! -
@SkipHuffman @alter_kaker @CptSuperlative It is of course against FB’s business interests to create lots of out-pointing links, so I imagine this is not accidental. The “web” in “world wide web” runs against the interests of a whole lot of businesses.
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Search is a wasteland right now. Alas. And there are no good choices.
But look, if I’m going to •pay• a company money for search, it needs to be a company run by ethically mature people. If and when Kagi is run by such people, maybe I’ll give that paid plan another go. For now, well, maybe these childish people will blunder their way to maturity and maybe they’ll just blunder, but either way, they won’t be doing it on my dime.
/end
ADDENDUM 1/2: Kagi is apparently now flailing around trying to find a quick and dirty fix for the uproar: “maybe you can disable Brave in your search results or we’ll try to make their services free or something” etc etc.
My deal-killing objection was not actually them using Brave’s services, but rather their •unwillingness to think• about the underlying issues in doing so. I can’t say that this “we’ll let you cover your eyes too” sort of response addresses my concerns at all.
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ADDENDUM 1/2: Kagi is apparently now flailing around trying to find a quick and dirty fix for the uproar: “maybe you can disable Brave in your search results or we’ll try to make their services free or something” etc etc.
My deal-killing objection was not actually them using Brave’s services, but rather their •unwillingness to think• about the underlying issues in doing so. I can’t say that this “we’ll let you cover your eyes too” sort of response addresses my concerns at all.
ADDENDUM 2/2: A search engine is going to face some of the toughest ethical problems a tech company can face. And they’ll face most of those problems ••out of public sight••.
I’m interested in the people, their thought process, their temperament. How do they engage with ethical questions? Perfection is impossible, but will they at least •try•? Do they have the capacity to try? Do they even give a shit?
Or do they actively •refuse• to give a shit and call that a virtue? Apparently so for Kagi.
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@apophis @dangerdyke @mia Based on other replies, there are some (maybe milder) red flags about their leadership too, but they’re in my trial mix for the time being.
