Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone I don’t think it’s necessarily involuntary manslaughter, but speaking as an authority on jellyfish when she wasn’t led to a tragic, fatal consequence. It certainly proves incorrect that infuriatingly pernicious axiom, “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” #actuallyautistic
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@KatyElphinstone I don’t think it’s necessarily involuntary manslaughter, but speaking as an authority on jellyfish when she wasn’t led to a tragic, fatal consequence. It certainly proves incorrect that infuriatingly pernicious axiom, “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” #actuallyautistic
@multipass @KatyElphinstone and the second sentence is vague. Was Janet making statements about a subject she knew nothing about? Or did she “know” for certain that jellyfish are harmless? Did someone lie to Janet? Did Janet have a past experience with some hypothetical stingerless jellyfish?
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@KatyElphinstone Reading through the article this part stood put to me.
”””
The researchers tested 13 autistic adults and 13 non-autistic adults on about 50 scenarios similar to the jellyfish example.
”””This sounds like a small sample to me.
I also wonder how they partitioned the sample? If they sorted individuals on behaviour typically seen as ”autistic”, and then tested if the cohort had a higher likelihood of the property they partitioned on, then thet have proven nothing.
So it's a form of selection bias I suppose. If that were the case, yes.
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Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
️ #Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic
Allistics never seem to notice that the less detail they have in front of them, the more assumptions they make. They mentally add information into scenarios & then extrapolate based on what they assumed but did not specify.
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Allistics never seem to notice that the less detail they have in front of them, the more assumptions they make. They mentally add information into scenarios & then extrapolate based on what they assumed but did not specify.
Yes. To be fair, we all do this to some extent. But neurodivergent folk do it less - relying on heuristics I mean.
My feeling is that's also why we get quite tired in unfamiliar contexts. We are taking in a lot more original information.
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@multipass @KatyElphinstone and the second sentence is vague. Was Janet making statements about a subject she knew nothing about? Or did she “know” for certain that jellyfish are harmless? Did someone lie to Janet? Did Janet have a past experience with some hypothetical stingerless jellyfish?
@cinebox @multipass @KatyElphinstone
And what's the relationship between the girls? Why Janet was invested about the authority of knowing about the safety of swimming there? -
@CynAq @KatyElphinstone 'It depends' is the answer to a *lot* of questions.
@CynAq@beige.party @KatyElphinstone@mas.to @wynke@mendeddrum.org
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone Don't fucking "reassure" people about things that you don't fucking *know* to be true, particularly where it's a question of safety! Fuck.
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So it's a form of selection bias I suppose. If that were the case, yes.
@KatyElphinstone I think I'd like to take it even a bit further and claim they are begging the question.
Assuming that there's a correct and not-correct mode of experience, then constructing at test that verifies the not-correct mode users as not operating "correctly". This is a text book example of a circular argument.
Use of words like "non-autistic" rather than "allistic" kind of gives this away, although arguably that could also be due to the article being a bit old.
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@KatyElphinstone I think I'd like to take it even a bit further and claim they are begging the question.
Assuming that there's a correct and not-correct mode of experience, then constructing at test that verifies the not-correct mode users as not operating "correctly". This is a text book example of a circular argument.
Use of words like "non-autistic" rather than "allistic" kind of gives this away, although arguably that could also be due to the article being a bit old.
@KatyElphinstone Also a bit curious as to how a bunch of 'aspie' science hippies would would construct a counter experiment, and thereby "proving" the same thing, but with the roles swapped so that allistic is verified as the dysfunctional mode of experience.
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@KatyElphinstone I think I'd like to take it even a bit further and claim they are begging the question.
Assuming that there's a correct and not-correct mode of experience, then constructing at test that verifies the not-correct mode users as not operating "correctly". This is a text book example of a circular argument.
Use of words like "non-autistic" rather than "allistic" kind of gives this away, although arguably that could also be due to the article being a bit old.
Yes, good point.
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@KatyElphinstone The whole "lack of #empathy" idea builds on the #TheoryOfMind idea, which is rotten to the core. The basic paper applying it to #autistics (Baron-Cohen, Leslie, and Frith 1985) got the idea from an irredeemably flawed paper that had applied it to CHIMPANZEES[!] (Premack and Woodruff 1978). Both papers are hopelessly confused about what it even MEANS to say that a person — or an animal — has, or does not have, a "theory of mind". Both of these groups of researchers should have gotten clear on their concepts BEFORE conducting any experiments — and since they didn’t, both papers should have been refused publication.
@dedicto @KatyElphinstone @autistics
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One of the many stickers on the side of our truck... If we had the spoons we would take a pic, but️
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1740718571/the-custom-sticker-pack-pick-any-5-vinyl@CynAq@beige.party @KatyElphinstone@mas.to @wynke@mendeddrum.org Had to take the recycling bin from the kitchen to the big bin outside, so an actual picture of the sticker and truck with a bunch of others.
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone Reading only your description, I leaned towards "yes, she is to blame, because if she didn't know for sure she should have said so instead of pretending", but after reading the article, I'd lean towards not blaming her, because she had recently read that the jellyfish in the area are harmless, so assuming a reputable source that was actually speaking about the area, she had reason to be confident in her knowledge.
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@KatyElphinstone Reading only your description, I leaned towards "yes, she is to blame, because if she didn't know for sure she should have said so instead of pretending", but after reading the article, I'd lean towards not blaming her, because she had recently read that the jellyfish in the area are harmless, so assuming a reputable source that was actually speaking about the area, she had reason to be confident in her knowledge.
@KatyElphinstone If I (late-diagnosed autistic) imagine what I would feel/do in a situation, is that a sign that I have empathy or lack empathy? (/half-joking)
I'd feel awful and blame myself if anyone, let alone a friend of mine, died because I *carelessly* gave them wrong information. If someone died because I passed on information I was sure was reliable, I'd also feel awful, but blame the source of the misinformation... -
@KatyElphinstone If I (late-diagnosed autistic) imagine what I would feel/do in a situation, is that a sign that I have empathy or lack empathy? (/half-joking)
I'd feel awful and blame myself if anyone, let alone a friend of mine, died because I *carelessly* gave them wrong information. If someone died because I passed on information I was sure was reliable, I'd also feel awful, but blame the source of the misinformation...@KatyElphinstone ...And if the dangerous jellyfish were so new in the area that the new information had no time to dissipate, well, that just sucks. (No-one to blame. Still feeling awful because I was involved in someone's death.)
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Exactly this, yes. I'm always a bit astonished at what I've perceived to be the arrogance of people who are very sure about their own intentions.... Especially when they keep repeating the same actions over and over, and then act surprised about there being a similar outcome every time
️@KatyElphinstone @Kir @autistics
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I mean, I SAY, Allistics punish and I don’t punish - when I hatched I was hoping to learn that other Autistics don’t punish or automatically assume it like me, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. I’d have to say that it’s not an Autistic trait generally, maybe it’s only my personal obsessive special interest. -
@KatyElphinstone i'm going to assert my bias here and say that, as allistics, they assumed the meaning of "blame" they intended was the only one in play. "of *course* everyone will understand what we mean"…
I would love to see a study like "Allistic Inquiry Bias in Theory Of Mind Studies - Are Allistics The Ones With Damaged Theory Of Mind?" by a team of researchers who are on the spectrum.
@KatyElphinstone -
I would love to see a study like "Allistic Inquiry Bias in Theory Of Mind Studies - Are Allistics The Ones With Damaged Theory Of Mind?" by a team of researchers who are on the spectrum.
@KatyElphinstone -
@KatyElphinstone really interesting.
My thoughts; the theory of mind impairment interpretation requires the assumption that the only morally relevant feature was Janet's belief state, when in fact participants may have been rating her process of belief formation as a separate moral dimension.
The study did not control for the source of the belief. If Janet made her recommendation to swim based on personal experience instead of relying on a book, I bet the study would have different findings.
@KatyElphinstone @hallvors @MaidenCatladyCrone I also have to say, the sample size in this study is literally ridiculously small if it is such an influential study. The only valid takeaway at the scale of 13 would be a call for a larger scale study.
