Everyone has a MacBook Neo take, so here's mine.
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@xgranade Apple ʜᴀꜱ built a platform⸺one can build complex functionality on top of SwiftUI for a really low net cost in RAM usage (because SwiftUI is all shared code). It’s just not a cross-platform platform. That’s not their problem, though.
@joXn Yeah, it's why I pluralized vendors. Electron sucks, but I can at least target it as a platform much easier than I can target the platforms tied to macOS. Individual vendors may have their own platforms, but as you note, Apple has no interest in making theirs cross-platform platforms.
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@SnoopJ No worries, I didn't express it as well as I could or should have!
@xgranade @SnoopJ yeah it's like a question of emphasis. just over-explaining for any passerby since this whole exchange is confusing
not "when PCs ship with 8GB *or less* of RAM…"
but "when *PCs* ship with 8GB or less of RAM…"
i.e. some random commodity vendor ships an 8GB machine, all the apps break on it, nobody cares, caveat emptor
whereas when *apple* builds a product with 8GB of RAM that is going to move 100 million units, app devs have to actually pay attention
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@xgranade @SnoopJ yeah it's like a question of emphasis. just over-explaining for any passerby since this whole exchange is confusing
not "when PCs ship with 8GB *or less* of RAM…"
but "when *PCs* ship with 8GB or less of RAM…"
i.e. some random commodity vendor ships an 8GB machine, all the apps break on it, nobody cares, caveat emptor
whereas when *apple* builds a product with 8GB of RAM that is going to move 100 million units, app devs have to actually pay attention
@xgranade @SnoopJ I actually think there's a nuance that may emerge later: these machines *do* have swap configured, and that internal storage isn't *too* bad in terms of speed, which means there's still an angle for app devs to not care where their app chugs along but is absolutely murdering the write cycles on the poor user's storage, shortening the device lifetime by years
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Put differently: this is the Electron killer, for better or worse, and not in the way that Apple killed Flash.
When PCs ship with 8 GB or less of RAM, application companies don't give a fuck, and so we get a proliferation of Electron and Electron-like platforms that consume gigantic amounts of RAM. That won't fly on something like the Neo.
@xgranade it's still absurd to me that this industry has found a way to make *8GB* of ram a 'modest limit'.
Part of that is just... I'm old and remember having a whole... 128MB of ram on my first computer (after we upgraded the ram).
but also just... I have a few old comps with 512MB-1GB that run fine still under slackware or debian (not "light" distros)
.... as long as you don't open a modern browser without a bunch of blockers of various things. -
@joXn Yeah, it's why I pluralized vendors. Electron sucks, but I can at least target it as a platform much easier than I can target the platforms tied to macOS. Individual vendors may have their own platforms, but as you note, Apple has no interest in making theirs cross-platform platforms.
@xgranade I _kind of_ like the Diet Electron approach of something like Dioxus, but with Dioxus I think the AI slop exposure risk factor is super-high, making the nominative similarity to “dioxin” bitterly apt.
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@xgranade @SnoopJ I actually think there's a nuance that may emerge later: these machines *do* have swap configured, and that internal storage isn't *too* bad in terms of speed, which means there's still an angle for app devs to not care where their app chugs along but is absolutely murdering the write cycles on the poor user's storage, shortening the device lifetime by years
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@xgranade it's still absurd to me that this industry has found a way to make *8GB* of ram a 'modest limit'.
Part of that is just... I'm old and remember having a whole... 128MB of ram on my first computer (after we upgraded the ram).
but also just... I have a few old comps with 512MB-1GB that run fine still under slackware or debian (not "light" distros)
.... as long as you don't open a modern browser without a bunch of blockers of various things.@miss_rodent Very much agreed.
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@xgranade @SnoopJ I actually think there's a nuance that may emerge later: these machines *do* have swap configured, and that internal storage isn't *too* bad in terms of speed, which means there's still an angle for app devs to not care where their app chugs along but is absolutely murdering the write cycles on the poor user's storage, shortening the device lifetime by years
@xgranade @SnoopJ maybe app devs respond to the incentive and don't want users to see multi-second pauses in their UIs, but, I think there is a possibility that if this starts happening, Apple has a potential future lever: ship an OS feature that gives app store apps a swap quota. start trashing the internal SSD by being profligate with RAM use, and you get crashed by the OS or paused with a "this app dev sucks" modal until the user quits some other stuff
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@cthos @xgranade @SnoopJ when they did it with those models I just thought it was kinda negligent and *strongly* advised most customers (except those whose usage I knew would be unusually light) to avoid those spec levels even though they looked cheap. The neo's aggressive market segmentation actually makes me _way_ more confident that we will see mitigations and incentives that address that problem more broadly
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@miss_rodent Very much agreed.
@xgranade when I was first learning to program, 8GB might as well have been infinite RAM.
(says the squirrel who started with C & asm, and then moved to gameboy asm... and various other old consoles/comps, I def spent a lot of time in contexts where managing memory use is mandatory.
I imagine that's not super common nowadays.) -
@xgranade I _kind of_ like the Diet Electron approach of something like Dioxus, but with Dioxus I think the AI slop exposure risk factor is super-high, making the nominative similarity to “dioxin” bitterly apt.
@joXn Tauri is another interesting one along those lines... I think there can be some interesting examples of shipping web view components along with an application, but there has to be some way of making sure that the whole UI isn't running in a full-fledged browser.
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@xgranade it's still absurd to me that this industry has found a way to make *8GB* of ram a 'modest limit'.
Part of that is just... I'm old and remember having a whole... 128MB of ram on my first computer (after we upgraded the ram).
but also just... I have a few old comps with 512MB-1GB that run fine still under slackware or debian (not "light" distros)
.... as long as you don't open a modern browser without a bunch of blockers of various things. -
@xgranade when I was first learning to program, 8GB might as well have been infinite RAM.
(says the squirrel who started with C & asm, and then moved to gameboy asm... and various other old consoles/comps, I def spent a lot of time in contexts where managing memory use is mandatory.
I imagine that's not super common nowadays.)@miss_rodent Yeah, absolutely. I do think it's good to get a bit away from such tiny amounts of RAM that manually managing all of it is mandatory, and modern displays definitely push higher RAM requirements all the way up the stack, but we never should have landed at 8 GB being moderate.
Hell, even late 90s early aughts JVM applications managed similar latencies to what we have now, but on systems with ~128 MB of RAM. I don't want to go back to the JVM, not by a long shot, but still.
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@miss_rodent Yeah, absolutely. I do think it's good to get a bit away from such tiny amounts of RAM that manually managing all of it is mandatory, and modern displays definitely push higher RAM requirements all the way up the stack, but we never should have landed at 8 GB being moderate.
Hell, even late 90s early aughts JVM applications managed similar latencies to what we have now, but on systems with ~128 MB of RAM. I don't want to go back to the JVM, not by a long shot, but still.
@xgranade Yeah, I don't think being stuck at 'every byte is precious and must be monitored carefully' would be great ...
... but I think the experience of learning how to program in a resource-conscious way is valuable, and treating ram as something to be utilized *reasonably*, and having *some* effort put into using it frugally would be a dramatic improvement over where we are now. -
@kevingranade @glyph @darby3 I think that's a little different, though, in that a Chromebook is restricted to being just a browser *by design*. That wouldn't even be the worst if local-only PWAs were more popular, but browser UIs do a piss-poor job of surfacing dependencies on remote services.
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@xgranade Yeah, I don't think being stuck at 'every byte is precious and must be monitored carefully' would be great ...
... but I think the experience of learning how to program in a resource-conscious way is valuable, and treating ram as something to be utilized *reasonably*, and having *some* effort put into using it frugally would be a dramatic improvement over where we are now.@xgranade but it seems like basically only embedded devs, real-time systems, and those who go into certain niche hobby spaces like retro console systems really bother most of the time...
... and web dev has gone completely off the rails in the opposite direction.
