Yesterday Cory Doctorow argued that refusal to use LLMs was mere "neoliberal purity culture".
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Yesterday Cory Doctorow argued that refusal to use LLMs was mere "neoliberal purity culture". I think his argument is a strawman, doesn't align with his own actions and delegitimizes important political actions we need to make in order to build a better cyberphysical world.
Acting ethically in an imperfect world
Life is complicated. Regardless of what your beliefs or politics or ethics are, the way that we set up our society and economy will often force you to act against them: You might not want to fly somewhere but your employer will not accept another mode of transportation, you want to eat vegan but are […]
Smashing Frames (tante.cc)
@tante Use of the word "neoliberal" in earnest in an essay is an almost infallible sign of nonsense. Certainly it works here.
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Which parts of running a model on your own laptop are implicated in "destroying the planet?" How is checking punctuation "stealing labor?" Or, for that matter "giving power over knowledge to LLM owners?"
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@simonzerafa @tante @pluralistic
At best 40% junk, but unless you are so expert you don't need it, you can't know which is plausible rubbish.
Would you play Russian Roulette every day for hours?@raymaccarthy @simonzerafa @tante
Again, what does checking the punctuation on a single essay per day have to do with "play[ing] Russian Roulette every day for hours?"
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@pluralistic @simonzerafa @tante
But Google Docs anything is rubbish.@raymaccarthy @simonzerafa @tante
I see. And do you have moral opinions about whether people should use Google Docs? Do you seek out strangers to tell them that it's dangerous to use Google Docs?
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@tante I still haven't completely unpacked these arguments. To dwell on the gramnar checker thing, I assume that pre-LLM checkers were to some extent developed by building statistical models from a large corpus of existing text. That's not quite the same thing as the mass plagiarism used to build generative AI models. For myself I've never used such tools, I consider them an annoyance: If there's a mistake in my writing, the human reader will make a better job of correcting it from context.
@kbm0 @tante
Spelling checkers need a curated dictionary related to a style guide as only one valid variant spelling should be used by an author, novel series or organisation.
Grammar checkers seem tuned to particular kinds of document, which certainly wouldn't include novels or blog posts.
Certain kinds of punctuation errors can be found. You don't need an LLM for that! Even some Regex can supplement a basic Grammar checker.
A lack of closing quote isn't always an error, nor a repeated word. -
Of course, I am speaking in generalities.
Encouraging the use of LLM's is counterproductive in so many ways, as I highlighted.
Pop a power meter on that LLM adorned PC and let us all know what the power usage looks like with and without your chosen LLM running on a typical task
That's power that generated somewhere, even if it's with renewable energy.
The main issue with LLM's is that they don't encourage critical thinking, in a world which is already suffering from a massive shortage.
As I wrote (and it seems you haven't read what I wrote, which is weird, because that seems like a good first step if you're going to criticize my conduct), I'm running Ollama on a laptop that doesn't even have a GPU.
Its power consumption is comparable to, say, watching a Youtube video.
I know this because my laptop is running free software that lets me accurately monitor its activity, and because the model is also free software.
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As I wrote (and it seems you haven't read what I wrote, which is weird, because that seems like a good first step if you're going to criticize my conduct), I'm running Ollama on a laptop that doesn't even have a GPU.
Its power consumption is comparable to, say, watching a Youtube video.
I know this because my laptop is running free software that lets me accurately monitor its activity, and because the model is also free software.
Checking for punctuation errors is does not discourage critical thinking. It's weird to laud "critical thinking" and also make this claim.
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@simonzerafa @tante @pluralistic
At best 40% junk, but unless you are so expert you don't need it, you can't know which is plausible rubbish.
Would you play Russian Roulette every day for hours?Beats me.
I thought Cory was supposed to be clever or something? I've blocked him for now. Not interested in banging my head against that particular lack of critical thinking.
Perhaps when the AI bubble bursts, he will become more rational.
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@tante I still haven't completely unpacked these arguments. To dwell on the gramnar checker thing, I assume that pre-LLM checkers were to some extent developed by building statistical models from a large corpus of existing text. That's not quite the same thing as the mass plagiarism used to build generative AI models. For myself I've never used such tools, I consider them an annoyance: If there's a mistake in my writing, the human reader will make a better job of correcting it from context.
@kbm0 @tante
It would have to be curated text. The MS one with Word 2003 is worse than a current LO Writer plug in.I can see no value in checking documents with an LLM.
A dictionary can be edited.
An open source grammar checking plug-in can have rules adjusted.
You can also add a regex.
Every replacement needs manually reviewed.The LLMs are opaque, can't be edited and based on content that's neither curated nor legally obtained. The economics don't work and it's environmentally damaging.
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@tante@tldr.nettime.org That's not the only thing where the actions and words of Doctorow do not match.
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@FediThing @tante @pluralistic I’ve been utterly baffled why he’s so popular for decades.
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@FediThing @tante @pluralistic I’ve been utterly baffled why he’s so popular for decades.
@Colman @FediThing @tante That's interesting. I've never wondered that about you.
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Yesterday Cory Doctorow argued that refusal to use LLMs was mere "neoliberal purity culture". I think his argument is a strawman, doesn't align with his own actions and delegitimizes important political actions we need to make in order to build a better cyberphysical world.
Acting ethically in an imperfect world
Life is complicated. Regardless of what your beliefs or politics or ethics are, the way that we set up our society and economy will often force you to act against them: You might not want to fly somewhere but your employer will not accept another mode of transportation, you want to eat vegan but are […]
Smashing Frames (tante.cc)
Good critique. And I say this, as well as like your arguments, while also believing there are certain domains where LLMs do have reasonable utility value - nowhere near the value required to make OpenAI, Antrophic or the rest profitable, but some value nonetheless.
@tante -
@FediThing @tante @pluralistic I’ve been utterly baffled why he’s so popular for decades.
@Colman @FediThing @pluralistic this is just a dumb attack on Cory as a person which I will not accept. You can talk about what he or I wrote (both things can be criticized) but have some respect
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Beats me.
I thought Cory was supposed to be clever or something? I've blocked him for now. Not interested in banging my head against that particular lack of critical thinking.
Perhaps when the AI bubble bursts, he will become more rational.
@simonzerafa @raymaccarthy this is just a dumb attack on Cory as a person which I will not accept. You can talk about what he or I wrote (both things can be criticized) but have some respect
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@simonzerafa @raymaccarthy this is just a dumb attack on Cory as a person which I will not accept. You can talk about what he or I wrote (both things can be criticized) but have some respect
@tante @simonzerafa
A brilliant person isn't right about everything.
It's only a criticism of one view/idea. -
Checking for punctuation errors is does not discourage critical thinking. It's weird to laud "critical thinking" and also make this claim.
@pluralistic @simonzerafa on this one for example I fully agree with Cory. This is not him having a genAI system write or anything like that.
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Which parts of running a model on your own laptop are implicated in "destroying the planet?" How is checking punctuation "stealing labor?" Or, for that matter "giving power over knowledge to LLM owners?"
@pluralistic I think you can answer these questions yourself.
Suppose you wore a coat made out of mink fur. The minks are already dead, simply wearing the coat won't kill more minks. What does wearing mink fur have to do with cruelty to minks?
Suppose you live in the time of the Luddites. Legislation prohibits trade unions and collective bargaining. Mill owners introduce machines, reducing wages. But you build your own machine. Problem solved? You helping labor or capital?
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Good critique. And I say this, as well as like your arguments, while also believing there are certain domains where LLMs do have reasonable utility value - nowhere near the value required to make OpenAI, Antrophic or the rest profitable, but some value nonetheless.
@tante@osma@mas.to @tante@tldr.nettime.org It has debatable utility in some uses, but nowhere near enough to make the industry worth keeping around given the ethical concerns. The utility is effectively immaterial compared to the self-parody levels of evil on display from OpenAI and its ilk.
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This falls into the "you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts" territory.
@pluralistic @tante I just spoke about my impression, but didn't lay claim to objective truth. I'll keep reading along.
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