Hey kids, in the olden days you bought (instead of “rented”) software and it came in a box with a disc and it was yours to use forever!
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Hey kids, in the olden days you bought (instead of “rented”) software and it came in a box with a disc and it was yours to use forever!
@rasterweb Worthwhile sentiment, but misleading argument.
Software in a fixed (non-updating) state always becomes obsolete. In the past, you had to buy new software at some point.
The business models have changed, but the underlying reality has not. You cannot run MS Office 98 on anything anyone's using right now.
Modern subscription models are indeed often exploitative, and yes, that's a scandal. But that doesn't make the concept wrong or bad, or invalidate the reasons why.
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Well, the “forever” part was tricky because it might break due to OS upgrades or computer architecture/chip changes.
But making a one-time purchase and using software 5 or 10 years was not unheard of.
I think I paid $500 for Photoshop and it came out to under $9 per month if I do the math right… that’s for 10 years of use.
If it’s still $20 per month for a subscription and you do 10 years that’s $2,400.
@rasterweb My own sense is that how, why, and how often essential support software or hardware is upgraded has been accelerating. I'm not qualified to say if that's how it should or must be, but that seems to be how it is. Consequently, application software must also upgrade more frequently, and sometimes radically. Since those upgrades cost money for the company providing them, someone else must pay for them.
Again, I agree that this relationship can be and often is exploitative.
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Well, the “forever” part was tricky because it might break due to OS upgrades or computer architecture/chip changes.
But making a one-time purchase and using software 5 or 10 years was not unheard of.
I think I paid $500 for Photoshop and it came out to under $9 per month if I do the math right… that’s for 10 years of use.
If it’s still $20 per month for a subscription and you do 10 years that’s $2,400.
@rasterweb 2/ My sense is that's the general system of frequent upgrade is necessary, but too many vendors take advantage of that fact to squeeze end-users in various ways, because current regulation does not adequately discourage that.
Regulation needs beefing up, with a few unusually egregious vendors made examples for everyone. But the subscription model is otherwise a reasonable alternative to replacing software more frequently, as long as it doesn't become exploitative.
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Just like how my mortgage is less than tbe rent my (adult) children pay, renting is about never owning and always paying more.
@rasterweb The mortgage/rent comparison is popular, but I think probably faulty, because these are also very different cost/benefit structures. A tenant may pay more per m^2, but they're also not responsible for many things that a homeowner would be. And in nearly all cases, a flat with the same floorspace and amenitites as most private homes would demand much higher rent.
In my mind, the biggest difference is that renters cannot build equity.
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Just like how my mortgage is less than tbe rent my (adult) children pay, renting is about never owning and always paying more.
@rasterweb 2/ I would liken software to being more like a personal vehicle, which you can buy, rent, or lease. Probably lease. A new car depreciates over time, no matter how well cared for. A leased car has aspects of both ownership or rental, but is replaced periodically.
But no one can build equity in software, no matter how you access it or for how long. There's no appreciation, no resale value, for anyone.
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And in the good old days, you bought magazines that came with a bonus disk containing a whole operating system along a bunch of softwares that were yours to use forever.
@MichelPatrice There's rarely any 'forever' when it comes to any software.
I actually have the very first Ubuntu release, and it definitely won't run on anything I have now.
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@rasterweb The disaster is one can be locked out of software you paid for if the internet is down or vendor's servers are down because you cannot authenticate that you have paid for the software. They do not even provide alternative authentication like a key. The software keeps needing re-authentication and it is not a one-off. It is like renting a house and not being able to open the door unless the telephone line is working and the landlord's answering machine is not full.
A total disaster.
@adingbatponder That is a scandal, for sure. There's no good reason that local authentication should not be available.
As I said elsewhere, I blame inadequate regulation. Vendors can be made to do this, if enough people push for it.
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Hey kids, in the olden days you bought (instead of “rented”) software and it came in a box with a disc and it was yours to use forever!
@rasterweb very true, i was once kid fearing dearly about my floppy disks but they were mine. Look at the gaming community - what I see is people now (even my age) dont even understand they do not own the game but they own the right to play the game (apart from GOG) and that this right can be revoked at any time and with the "always online" service, you are at the mercy of those who "rent" you the titles.
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Hey kids, in the olden days you bought (instead of “rented”) software and it came in a box with a disc and it was yours to use forever!
@rasterweb SAAS is a scam and I refuse to subscribe to any of it. I'll go without before they get any rent money out of me.
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@MichelPatrice There's rarely any 'forever' when it comes to any software.
I actually have the very first Ubuntu release, and it definitely won't run on anything I have now.
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@MichelPatrice I can use something CALLED Ubuntu, and I do. But it has little in common with the first one I used. Some nuggets of the kernel I'm sure are the same or very similar. But it would be impossible to patch the original enough to get it working on anything I'm using now. Canonical themselves have said so.
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Hey kids, in the olden days you bought (instead of “rented”) software and it came in a box with a disc and it was yours to use forever!
@rasterweb It's another version of the Sam Vimes boots theory of economic unfairness
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@MichelPatrice I can use something CALLED Ubuntu, and I do. But it has little in common with the first one I used. Some nuggets of the kernel I'm sure are the same or very similar. But it would be impossible to patch the original enough to get it working on anything I'm using now. Canonical themselves have said so.
Yes, I understand all this.
But can find cool to have an old (now useless) Ubuntu disk from back in the days?
And can we just not tell my girlfriend that this pile of old disks is now useless?
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Yes, I understand all this.
But can find cool to have an old (now useless) Ubuntu disk from back in the days?
And can we just not tell my girlfriend that this pile of old disks is now useless?
@MichelPatrice Sure. I still have it myself.
I wouldn't necessarily call it 'useless', either. You could in theory run it in VM, and that could be cool.
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@rasterweb 2/ My sense is that's the general system of frequent upgrade is necessary, but too many vendors take advantage of that fact to squeeze end-users in various ways, because current regulation does not adequately discourage that.
Regulation needs beefing up, with a few unusually egregious vendors made examples for everyone. But the subscription model is otherwise a reasonable alternative to replacing software more frequently, as long as it doesn't become exploitative.
@wesdym If I look back 15 years ago I knew people who would skip a version of a large software purchase/upgrade, or they would purposely just not upgrade for as long as possible because the software did what they needed.
Often it was dealing with another user who had a newer version that forced an upgrade.
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Well, the “forever” part was tricky because it might break due to OS upgrades or computer architecture/chip changes.
But making a one-time purchase and using software 5 or 10 years was not unheard of.
I think I paid $500 for Photoshop and it came out to under $9 per month if I do the math right… that’s for 10 years of use.
If it’s still $20 per month for a subscription and you do 10 years that’s $2,400.
I should note that I was able to pay $500 for Photoshop only because I did a huge freelance project and made enough to buy a copy. I know that's not in everyone's budget though, and that's how they get you with the $20 a month (cheap!) cost of rental.
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@rasterweb 2/ I would liken software to being more like a personal vehicle, which you can buy, rent, or lease. Probably lease. A new car depreciates over time, no matter how well cared for. A leased car has aspects of both ownership or rental, but is replaced periodically.
But no one can build equity in software, no matter how you access it or for how long. There's no appreciation, no resale value, for anyone.
@wesdym How do you classify my model then, where I bought a 12 year old used car for cheap, paid it off in one year, and now own it forever. What is the software equivalent?
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Well, the “forever” part was tricky because it might break due to OS upgrades or computer architecture/chip changes.
But making a one-time purchase and using software 5 or 10 years was not unheard of.
I think I paid $500 for Photoshop and it came out to under $9 per month if I do the math right… that’s for 10 years of use.
If it’s still $20 per month for a subscription and you do 10 years that’s $2,400.
@rasterweb for what it’s worth Affinity apps I bought still run on my 2015 intel PowerBook.
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@wesdym How do you classify my model then, where I bought a 12 year old used car for cheap, paid it off in one year, and now own it forever. What is the software equivalent?
@rasterweb You will not own it forever, and this is only an analogy, not an exact analogue, and I know that you're smart enough to know that.
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@rasterweb You will not own it forever, and this is only an analogy, not an exact analogue, and I know that you're smart enough to know that.
@wesdym If you want to be pedantic (which I am fine with):
I can own it for as long as like and/or as long as I am able.
Is that better?
So what is the software equivalency of this?
In the old days maybe it would have been getting a used computer with software already installed from the previous owner that you could still use?
