Yet another #Artemis II article (from a French press agency, no less) ignoring that propulsion, power, & life support to the Orion capsule are provided by ESA’s European Service Module.
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@datenwolf It also tends to be a lot more “bitty”, coming in small chunks as experiments are modified & upgraded over time. It’s also often a bit buried in wider studies of which the spaceflight experiments are just part.
Of course, I’m deliberately avoiding saying whether the cost-science benefit ratio is worth it compared to robotic missions, but arguably the two pots of money aren’t really fungible. Science is a by-product of other human spaceflight, not the primary goal.
I'm well aware of the experiments that are done on the ISS (or back in the day on the STS and Mir). Heck, a couple of years ago some hardware for a medical study went up to the ISS what was in part built (or rather modified from the commercial system) by colleagues of me (optical coherence tomography to investigate the eyesight problems astronauts develop in microgravity).
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I'm well aware of the experiments that are done on the ISS (or back in the day on the STS and Mir). Heck, a couple of years ago some hardware for a medical study went up to the ISS what was in part built (or rather modified from the commercial system) by colleagues of me (optical coherence tomography to investigate the eyesight problems astronauts develop in microgravity).
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What's puzzling to me is, that so little of what's done on the ISS ends up being discussed during lunch, or over the post seminar pizza. Whereas so much other research, often in very far removed fields tends to be brought up.
It's a quite remarkable situation: Crewed space flight is a very "popular" topic; almost everyone in the 1st and 2nd world knows about it and that "a lot of science" is happening there.But among my earthbound researcher peers it's discussed very little.
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To be clear, yes, the article is in a British newspaper, @guardian, but is directly sourced from @AFP.
Not that the articles written by the Guardian’s own journalists are necessarily any better, mind you:
Artemis II marks Nasa’s new moon age, wrapped in patriotism and global promise
The moonshot gave US spectacle a broader face with the first woman, first person of color and first non-American
the Guardian (www.theguardian.com)
And this is no UK anti-Europe bias; same across most Euro-media.
Some are doing better though, & I know the BBC are doing a piece today about the key role being played by the ESM, & ESA themselves are of course talking up the ESM.
@markmccaughrean @guardian @AFP
I haven't read the english AFP article, but I can tell you that BFM (main tv news) invited someone who spoke long about ESA's work on this mission (I can't remember his name but I'll try to find the video).
There's also other articles like the one from RFI (RAdio France Internationale), interview with Philippe Berthe :
Artemis II: «Sans le Module de service européen, la mission est impossible»
https://www.rfi.fr/fr/science/20260331-artemis-ii-sans-le-module-de-service-europ%C3%A9en-la-mission-est-impossible -
What's puzzling to me is, that so little of what's done on the ISS ends up being discussed during lunch, or over the post seminar pizza. Whereas so much other research, often in very far removed fields tends to be brought up.
It's a quite remarkable situation: Crewed space flight is a very "popular" topic; almost everyone in the 1st and 2nd world knows about it and that "a lot of science" is happening there.But among my earthbound researcher peers it's discussed very little.
@datenwolf I agree, & little of the science done there is covered by media either, hence burying it from the public radar screen too. Possibly because in part it’s visually unexciting, just humans & boxes of gear.
There’s also an element of truth in that it’s a bit of an insider club, with the same groups getting experiments approved all the time, partly because they already know the ropes & partly because they then sit on the committees deciding future strategy & experiments.
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@datenwolf I agree, & little of the science done there is covered by media either, hence burying it from the public radar screen too. Possibly because in part it’s visually unexciting, just humans & boxes of gear.
There’s also an element of truth in that it’s a bit of an insider club, with the same groups getting experiments approved all the time, partly because they already know the ropes & partly because they then sit on the committees deciding future strategy & experiments.
@datenwolf And that you get weird outliers like AMS-02, a hugely expensive piece of kit that made its way to the ISS despite not being highly-ranked in peer review, despite huge technical problems during test which led to the cryomagnet being dumped, making the experiment less sensitive, & despite needing congressional approval for a whole extra shuttle flight to get it there.
The power of a Nobel prize winner very adept at playing politics, to be sure, but good for science?
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@markmccaughrean @guardian @AFP
I haven't read the english AFP article, but I can tell you that BFM (main tv news) invited someone who spoke long about ESA's work on this mission (I can't remember his name but I'll try to find the video).
There's also other articles like the one from RFI (RAdio France Internationale), interview with Philippe Berthe :
Artemis II: «Sans le Module de service européen, la mission est impossible»
https://www.rfi.fr/fr/science/20260331-artemis-ii-sans-le-module-de-service-europ%C3%A9en-la-mission-est-impossible@hadon Oh, there certainly has been some coverage of the European involvement in Artemis, & I also saw a piece of Dutch TV where the fact that the solar wings were made in Leiden was mentioned.
I’ve been asked to do media around Artemis & have largely turned it down, because I have felt very conflicted about not wanting to give any succour to the current US govt. Missed opportunities to discuss the ESM as a result, of course.
And overall, ESA’s part is just lost in the noise of US flag-waving.
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@birchbirch The problem with that is that people are often fine with glorious, exciting endeavours when the bill is footed by someone else.
Ask your golf friends whether they’d be willing to pay an extra few percent income tax to fund an independent European human spaceflight programme & a wider boost to education, universities, government R&D, tech incubation, & science needed to support, justify, & benefit from such a programme.
I suspect you know the answer already
@markmccaughrean Golfers are rather used to the imposition of additional levies to be used for "future programmes" - whether the members want them or not! But you're right; a good proportion wouldn't be in favour of additional taxes.
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@markmccaughrean Quite a lot of people used to be really excited about manned space exploration, myself being one of them, but current events have made us almost indifferent to it. To refer to a professional author's take:
Charlie Stross (@cstross@wandering.shop)
Same for me, too. And Elon Musk took all the joy out of his big rocket launch (and occasional explosion) livestreams when he unmasked as full nazi in public. And the Russian space program? Dead to me. We should just get back in the sea. Our species is done.
The Wandering Shop (wandering.shop)
@Lemmus I have a lot of time for Charlie & his perspective, & suspect that it’s widely shared even among tech & science folk.
Which is a problem for NASA, inasmuch as the association between the tropes of human destiny in space & fascism are probably even stronger now in the public eye than it was in Von Braun’s heyday.
But perhaps even more so for ESA, if the next move is to try to persuade people that an independent human spaceflight programme is the way forward.
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R relay@relay.mycrowd.ca shared this topic
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Yet another #Artemis II article (from a French press agency, no less) ignoring that propulsion, power, & life support to the Orion capsule are provided by ESA’s European Service Module.
Built in Bremen by Airbus, with parts from all over Europe, e.g. solar wings made in Leiden.
Also no mention of the fact that the ESM’s for the Moon-landing Artemis IV & V missions are to be supplied as part of ESA’s contribution to the Lunar Gateway.
Which NASA cancelled last week.
Artemis II astronauts closer to moon than Earth amid toilet malfunction
Crew members can now see the moon, which one described as ‘a beautiful sight’, from their spacecraft’s docking hatch
the Guardian (www.theguardian.com)
@markmccaughrean Maybe I didn't read the thread carefully enough, but what does that cancellation mean for the planned moon landing?
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@markmccaughrean Maybe I didn't read the thread carefully enough, but what does that cancellation mean for the planned moon landing?
@kallekn I'm not fully up-to-speed on all the details, but the original Moon landing mission was supposed to Artemis III, but was already moved to IV. ESM-3 & ESM-4 were delivered by Airbus to KSC in Aug 2024 & Nov 2025, respectively, so those parts of the hardware for those missions is in place.
Whether ESA will get its promised lunar astronauts (in principle the first should be German) & what happens to ESM-5 & 6, I don't know.
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Yet another #Artemis II article (from a French press agency, no less) ignoring that propulsion, power, & life support to the Orion capsule are provided by ESA’s European Service Module.
Built in Bremen by Airbus, with parts from all over Europe, e.g. solar wings made in Leiden.
Also no mention of the fact that the ESM’s for the Moon-landing Artemis IV & V missions are to be supplied as part of ESA’s contribution to the Lunar Gateway.
Which NASA cancelled last week.
Artemis II astronauts closer to moon than Earth amid toilet malfunction
Crew members can now see the moon, which one described as ‘a beautiful sight’, from their spacecraft’s docking hatch
the Guardian (www.theguardian.com)
@markmccaughrean @happydisciple I'm sure Austria isn't the only European country whose media is running excited stories about the country's contributions to the ESM. Pressurisation lines from Styria! The service module backbone network from Vienna!
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Yet another #Artemis II article (from a French press agency, no less) ignoring that propulsion, power, & life support to the Orion capsule are provided by ESA’s European Service Module.
Built in Bremen by Airbus, with parts from all over Europe, e.g. solar wings made in Leiden.
Also no mention of the fact that the ESM’s for the Moon-landing Artemis IV & V missions are to be supplied as part of ESA’s contribution to the Lunar Gateway.
Which NASA cancelled last week.
Artemis II astronauts closer to moon than Earth amid toilet malfunction
Crew members can now see the moon, which one described as ‘a beautiful sight’, from their spacecraft’s docking hatch
the Guardian (www.theguardian.com)
@markmccaughrean The NASA stream I've been watching did mention the ESM module. I'm pleased that it's an international effort and also that they didn't try some half-assed attempt to use SpaceX equipment which is untested for a lunar mission.
Now if we can just purge the white supremacists out of our government...
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@kallekn I'm not fully up-to-speed on all the details, but the original Moon landing mission was supposed to Artemis III, but was already moved to IV. ESM-3 & ESM-4 were delivered by Airbus to KSC in Aug 2024 & Nov 2025, respectively, so those parts of the hardware for those missions is in place.
Whether ESA will get its promised lunar astronauts (in principle the first should be German) & what happens to ESM-5 & 6, I don't know.
@markmccaughrean But they'll be able to land?
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@markmccaughrean @happydisciple I'm sure Austria isn't the only European country whose media is running excited stories about the country's contributions to the ESM. Pressurisation lines from Styria! The service module backbone network from Vienna!
@m @happydisciple I would hope that’s the case, as ESA & its Member States (thus the taxpayers) have spent a lot of money on the ESM
I do know that the Leiden-built solar wings were trumpeted on TV in NL, but quite whether this message is getting across to the general public more broadly, I don’t know. If & when a European flies on Artemis, that should change, but even then, as we know, ESA astronauts are generally only well-known in their home country.
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@markmccaughrean But they'll be able to land?
@kallekn That's all down to the Child King & whether his rockets can deliver the promised goods.
There's an awful lot of difficult work to be done to prove that the single HLS Starship can be refuelled in LEO by a whole fleet of other tanker & depot Starships (somewhere between 10 & 20!!) as is required.
Truly, the concept is utterly bananas & I don't know how / why anyone ever signed up to it.
I mean, Apollo was *far* simpler more than fifty years ago.
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@markmccaughrean The NASA stream I've been watching did mention the ESM module. I'm pleased that it's an international effort and also that they didn't try some half-assed attempt to use SpaceX equipment which is untested for a lunar mission.
Now if we can just purge the white supremacists out of our government...
@mpotter That's good to hear & yes, of course in principle I'm happy that Europe is part of the programme. But US politics has shifted greatly since that collaboration started, & personally (I no longer speak for ESA), I'm deeply unhappy about the geopolitical context this is happening in.
As for the Child King, I still can't believe anyone signed up to the ludicrous HLS concept. 10-20 Starship launches to fuel another Starship depot in LEO, then transferring that to the actual lunar lander?
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@markmccaughrean Quite a lot of people used to be really excited about manned space exploration, myself being one of them, but current events have made us almost indifferent to it. To refer to a professional author's take:
Charlie Stross (@cstross@wandering.shop)
Same for me, too. And Elon Musk took all the joy out of his big rocket launch (and occasional explosion) livestreams when he unmasked as full nazi in public. And the Russian space program? Dead to me. We should just get back in the sea. Our species is done.
The Wandering Shop (wandering.shop)
@Lemmus @markmccaughrean I'm still genuinely surprised that it happened. When Trump started talking about it my immediate response was "Bullshit, he's distracting people from important things."
I never thought he was serious.
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@hadon Oh, there certainly has been some coverage of the European involvement in Artemis, & I also saw a piece of Dutch TV where the fact that the solar wings were made in Leiden was mentioned.
I’ve been asked to do media around Artemis & have largely turned it down, because I have felt very conflicted about not wanting to give any succour to the current US govt. Missed opportunities to discuss the ESM as a result, of course.
And overall, ESA’s part is just lost in the noise of US flag-waving.
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@hadon Oh, there certainly has been some coverage of the European involvement in Artemis, & I also saw a piece of Dutch TV where the fact that the solar wings were made in Leiden was mentioned.
I’ve been asked to do media around Artemis & have largely turned it down, because I have felt very conflicted about not wanting to give any succour to the current US govt. Missed opportunities to discuss the ESM as a result, of course.
And overall, ESA’s part is just lost in the noise of US flag-waving.
But you are right, maybe written mainstream media hasn't said it enough. So, I'm going to share more articles on the subject. This is something about we Europeans should be proud. We need to know more about our own capabilities and strength.
Europe powers Artemis II mission to the Moon
NASA�s Space Launch System rocket lifted off from the Kennedy Space Center in Florida, USA, carrying four astronauts aboard the Orion spacecraft on the Artemis II mission. This historic launch marks the first crewed flight of the Artemis programme and the first time humans are travelling towards the Moon in over 50 years., , , , Europe will be providing the power that makes the journey possible thanks to ESA�s European Service Module, the propulsion heart of the Orion spacecraft. The module su...
WebWire (www.webwire.com)
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These are issues that ESA will have to carefully & honestly examine with its Member States in the coming months, as they try to come up with a strategy for human spaceflight that takes into account its deep current dependence on an increasingly unreliable partner.
Do European governments & the European public believe that an independent human spaceflight capability is desirable & affordable?
IMO, it’s perfectly ok if the answer to that is no. But the current model appears very broken.
@markmccaughrean I assume that due to the current set of crises, people are occupied with other things. Also ESA and local governments are not very vocal about their human spaceflight program. If there were a true EU project more people would be interested. And if this would not coincide with the demise of welfare state programs, people would like it.
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