I am not #lowVision but I want to welcome with a sincere heart the earnest effort of @NVAccess for building a free magnifier to be access directly with NVDA
-
I am not #lowVision but I want to welcome with a sincere heart the earnest effort of @NVAccess for building a free magnifier to be access directly with NVDA.
I have recommended this to the org long long ago, and @jcsteh wonderfully brought up a valid concern on resources and technical difficultie, a true hurtle at that point of time.
I am glad that we are overcoming the bariours and finally building a free, reliable, robust magnifier for our low vision peers. I am just worried about something. -
I am not #lowVision but I want to welcome with a sincere heart the earnest effort of @NVAccess for building a free magnifier to be access directly with NVDA.
I have recommended this to the org long long ago, and @jcsteh wonderfully brought up a valid concern on resources and technical difficultie, a true hurtle at that point of time.
I am glad that we are overcoming the bariours and finally building a free, reliable, robust magnifier for our low vision peers. I am just worried about something.@NVAccess @jcsteh I am starting to hear some concerns that people are not prefering the magnifier being build in into the #nvda #Screenreader.
I am fully onboard with the idea of having the magnifier along with screen reading in one package, and here's whhy.
Let's put all the rights model and social model aside, we are all with a health condition, passive or active, that's the difference.
In many ways, blindness is a continuoum, there's no clear cut experience of arbitrary low vision and Blind. -
@NVAccess @jcsteh I am starting to hear some concerns that people are not prefering the magnifier being build in into the #nvda #Screenreader.
I am fully onboard with the idea of having the magnifier along with screen reading in one package, and here's whhy.
Let's put all the rights model and social model aside, we are all with a health condition, passive or active, that's the difference.
In many ways, blindness is a continuoum, there's no clear cut experience of arbitrary low vision and Blind.@NVAccess @jcsteh if we separately distribute magnifier and screen reader in different packages, I worry it would not reach the intended people directly.
More importantly, the features of a screen reader and magnifier, like it or not, should be blurring. There is only a thin line, at least for fundamentals.
Highlighting focus, tracking or other fundamentals of magnifiers that are not related to magnification per see, can be also a good screen reading feature for the nonvisual, or less visual. -
@NVAccess @jcsteh if we separately distribute magnifier and screen reader in different packages, I worry it would not reach the intended people directly.
More importantly, the features of a screen reader and magnifier, like it or not, should be blurring. There is only a thin line, at least for fundamentals.
Highlighting focus, tracking or other fundamentals of magnifiers that are not related to magnification per see, can be also a good screen reading feature for the nonvisual, or less visual.@NVAccess @jcsteh A fine way to do this is to allow magnification to be optionally enabled in startup and important features of magnification to be turned on by default,
These features should be build such that it does not impair the screen reader first or Braile first users workflow, and work by default alongside screen reader.
any thoughts, @stevenscott @joslee -
@NVAccess @jcsteh A fine way to do this is to allow magnification to be optionally enabled in startup and important features of magnification to be turned on by default,
These features should be build such that it does not impair the screen reader first or Braile first users workflow, and work by default alongside screen reader.
any thoughts, @stevenscott @joslee@NVAccess @jcsteh @stevenscott @joslee can try the latest NVDA alpha here, the magnifier is built-in.
https://download.nvaccess.org/snapshots/alpha/ -
@NVAccess @jcsteh @stevenscott @joslee can try the latest NVDA alpha here, the magnifier is built-in.
https://download.nvaccess.org/snapshots/alpha/@kaveinthran @NVAccess @jcsteh @stevenscott @joslee I am low vision myself, and as someone who uses the built-in Windows Magnifier in combination with NVDA, my biggest concern about having a built-in Magnifier, especially enabled by default, aside from the obvious fact of conflicts, is the single point of failure. The Windows Magnifier is lightweight and reliable, to the point where it doesn't crash even on the most basic system. My main concern here is that if this becomes a standard feature of NVDA, and NVDA crashes, you simultaneously lose your speech and your magnification in the event of a complete NVDA lock up. I personally would either give the option to not have it on by default, or make the screen magnifier a separate project (like how Fusion is separate from JAWS). Moreover, my other concern relates to keyboard shortcut hotkeys, as if NV Access decides for some reason that it should prioritize its Magnifier over the Windows one as a Magnifier user, I don't consider that a wise choice, especially if the Windows Magnifier does the job flawlessly. I'd consider the feature redundant and having it run under a single process I fear will add massive overhead from a performance perspective. This isn't Windows 7 anymore, where Magnifier's full screen feature relied on Aero to the point where not having it on meant you were stuck with the infamous docked mode from Windows Vista and earlier. This was one of my issues with using JAWS in Windows 7 that prompted me to switch to NVDA back in the day, mainly because JAWS would disable DWM, turning on Windows 7 Basic, thus killing Aero and the full screen magnification feature with it. As of Windows 8 and later, DWM is no longer a requirement for the full screen magnification feature built into Windows, so I do have to ask, is there really any advantages to having the Magnifier tool built into NVDA when a quick, easy Magnifier is ready to launch?
-
@kaveinthran @NVAccess @jcsteh @stevenscott @joslee I am low vision myself, and as someone who uses the built-in Windows Magnifier in combination with NVDA, my biggest concern about having a built-in Magnifier, especially enabled by default, aside from the obvious fact of conflicts, is the single point of failure. The Windows Magnifier is lightweight and reliable, to the point where it doesn't crash even on the most basic system. My main concern here is that if this becomes a standard feature of NVDA, and NVDA crashes, you simultaneously lose your speech and your magnification in the event of a complete NVDA lock up. I personally would either give the option to not have it on by default, or make the screen magnifier a separate project (like how Fusion is separate from JAWS). Moreover, my other concern relates to keyboard shortcut hotkeys, as if NV Access decides for some reason that it should prioritize its Magnifier over the Windows one as a Magnifier user, I don't consider that a wise choice, especially if the Windows Magnifier does the job flawlessly. I'd consider the feature redundant and having it run under a single process I fear will add massive overhead from a performance perspective. This isn't Windows 7 anymore, where Magnifier's full screen feature relied on Aero to the point where not having it on meant you were stuck with the infamous docked mode from Windows Vista and earlier. This was one of my issues with using JAWS in Windows 7 that prompted me to switch to NVDA back in the day, mainly because JAWS would disable DWM, turning on Windows 7 Basic, thus killing Aero and the full screen magnification feature with it. As of Windows 8 and later, DWM is no longer a requirement for the full screen magnification feature built into Windows, so I do have to ask, is there really any advantages to having the Magnifier tool built into NVDA when a quick, easy Magnifier is ready to launch?
@Winelectronic101 @NVAccess @jcsteh @stevenscott @joslee Your concern is totally valid, and this is why we need more constructive dialogue with users through many channels like this. Thanks for bringing up your perspective. I'm glad to hear counterpoint like this it make me to consider my assumptions and understanding and help me to shift my perspective. Multiple perspectives like this will serve our future better.
-
@Winelectronic101 @NVAccess @jcsteh @stevenscott @joslee Your concern is totally valid, and this is why we need more constructive dialogue with users through many channels like this. Thanks for bringing up your perspective. I'm glad to hear counterpoint like this it make me to consider my assumptions and understanding and help me to shift my perspective. Multiple perspectives like this will serve our future better.
@kaveinthran @Winelectronic101 @jcsteh @stevenscott @joslee NVDA is widely considered very stable and we don't have any plans to allow it to become less so. In your hypothetical, if NVDA did crash, then you could likely start Windows magnifier if needed? The advantage of a combined product is co-ordinated magnification & speech - things like focus tracking and highlighting. You can try the magnifier in the latest alpha: https://download.nvaccess.org/snapshots/alpha/ we'd be interested in your feedback.
-
P pixelate@tweesecake.social shared this topic
