Does anyone have a screepcap or link saved of the interaction about a decade ago when a trans girl on reddit asked an adult cis man how often he thought about being a girl and his answer was something like "I dont think ive ever thought about that".
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this was just brought to my attention so im including it for any cis people who have read any of this and are curious what sort of shape the people im talking about are in:
@siege oof rough one that 🫂
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@JoscelynTransient like any warm blooded man i too yearn to be dead so i can live again as a cute girly girl uwu
@siege @JoscelynTransient I think it depends on how you define "trans".
From the outside, it's basically "live as another gender", with a spectrum ranging from "occasionally/for fun" to surgery/name change/etc.
If from the inside it's "fantasize about being another gender", then it would explain your reactions just as well as that screenshot.
I posted something a few years ago along those lines here, and the overwhelmingly kind reaction has been to effectively include me as trans. But I am...
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@siege @JoscelynTransient I think it depends on how you define "trans".
From the outside, it's basically "live as another gender", with a spectrum ranging from "occasionally/for fun" to surgery/name change/etc.
If from the inside it's "fantasize about being another gender", then it would explain your reactions just as well as that screenshot.
I posted something a few years ago along those lines here, and the overwhelmingly kind reaction has been to effectively include me as trans. But I am...
@siege @JoscelynTransient ... 100% convinced currently that I will never live as another gender. I say that being totally fine with people applying the trans label to me. But I don't really, in my mind.
(The TL;DR is, I'm comfortable as I am, but if I could physically gender switch at will, I'd be happy to flip back and forth. Only time would tell in which form I'd spend more time.)
I think there's room for an in-between zone of the trans spectrum. Perhaps that would also make it less scary?
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@siege @JoscelynTransient ... 100% convinced currently that I will never live as another gender. I say that being totally fine with people applying the trans label to me. But I don't really, in my mind.
(The TL;DR is, I'm comfortable as I am, but if I could physically gender switch at will, I'd be happy to flip back and forth. Only time would tell in which form I'd spend more time.)
I think there's room for an in-between zone of the trans spectrum. Perhaps that would also make it less scary?
@siege @JoscelynTransient For what it's worth, this almost certainly relates to the relatively high statistic correlation of autistic and trans people.
The entirety of the autistic experienced, summarized, is "you do peopling wrong" - and that includes the expectations society projects onto your gender representation. It leads to a lot of introspection on what makes one "wrong", when one feels "right" on the inside.
Plus, personally speaking, there's a tad more distance between my mind and...
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@siege @JoscelynTransient For what it's worth, this almost certainly relates to the relatively high statistic correlation of autistic and trans people.
The entirety of the autistic experienced, summarized, is "you do peopling wrong" - and that includes the expectations society projects onto your gender representation. It leads to a lot of introspection on what makes one "wrong", when one feels "right" on the inside.
Plus, personally speaking, there's a tad more distance between my mind and...
@siege @JoscelynTransient ... body than other folk seem to experience. I don't know if it's universal. But for me at least, it makes experimentation with the shell more "natural", because the ghost matters.
At least in principle; practice is where things get too hard to bother with for the most part.
It's less "yearning to be a girl", and way more "yearning to experience more lenses than one to experience life through".
I don't want to presume knowing what others feel, but it would make...
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@siege @JoscelynTransient ... body than other folk seem to experience. I don't know if it's universal. But for me at least, it makes experimentation with the shell more "natural", because the ghost matters.
At least in principle; practice is where things get too hard to bother with for the most part.
It's less "yearning to be a girl", and way more "yearning to experience more lenses than one to experience life through".
I don't want to presume knowing what others feel, but it would make...
@siege @JoscelynTransient ... perfect sense to me if this was the source of some folks' dysphoria at least.
For me, it translated differently. I've just become stubborn about not letting others define me. And with time, getting more relaxed about this, too, because try as they might, they won't really succeed anyway.
Which is a large part of why I'm comfortable as I am.
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@siege The sentence-to-sentence juxtapositions are next level.
"it hurts"/"no pain"
"no desire for change"/"yearn [...] to be reborn"
I hope she figured herself out.
@glowtayto wow, well noticed! That's some serious cognitive dissonance. I remember it well.
Also, hello fellow potato!
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@siege -
@valentine 2 continued: figures it out in early teen years, normally has terrible time trying to negotiate situation with parents, posts always tend to include crying in showers.
3. those who accept what they're told by parents/teachers, that they are their agab, and therefore self learn to crush any internal gender need feelings and build a cage around it, cage becomes more complex as life continues, puberty leads to more intense crushing of needs, mental health cracks begin from closet life
@siege I know at least one such cryptid, and she's amazing. The self-assuredness that takes at such a young age is beyond the reach of most.
Myself I'm an unholy combination of 2 and 3. I voiced my truth to myself at 17 years old, concluded it unactionable, and then pushed for some other explanation for the next fifteen years. (And then still didn't do anything concrete for another half decade).
@valentine -
@siege I know at least one such cryptid, and she's amazing. The self-assuredness that takes at such a young age is beyond the reach of most.
Myself I'm an unholy combination of 2 and 3. I voiced my truth to myself at 17 years old, concluded it unactionable, and then pushed for some other explanation for the next fifteen years. (And then still didn't do anything concrete for another half decade).
@valentine -
@valentine 2 continued: figures it out in early teen years, normally has terrible time trying to negotiate situation with parents, posts always tend to include crying in showers.
3. those who accept what they're told by parents/teachers, that they are their agab, and therefore self learn to crush any internal gender need feelings and build a cage around it, cage becomes more complex as life continues, puberty leads to more intense crushing of needs, mental health cracks begin from closet life
@siege @valentine there is a fourth group which is small but may hopefully get bigger: people who were told all their lives, by at least some of the people around them, that they are the ones who ultimately know their own gender, that being trans is an actual possibility for them. I know some kids like that.
It seems a little like the tragectory that sexuality has taken (and some of this will likely depend on where you are). Nowadays, there are a lot more kids who grow up knowing that they might be gay, that they can just pay attention to their own feelings of attraction. It's not perfect; those kids are still moving through a highly heteronormative world. But it is easier than it was thirty years ago.
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@siege @JoscelynTransient ... 100% convinced currently that I will never live as another gender. I say that being totally fine with people applying the trans label to me. But I don't really, in my mind.
(The TL;DR is, I'm comfortable as I am, but if I could physically gender switch at will, I'd be happy to flip back and forth. Only time would tell in which form I'd spend more time.)
I think there's room for an in-between zone of the trans spectrum. Perhaps that would also make it less scary?
@jens there are in-between zones of being trans if that feels right to you! The key is, if you would feel better living your gender differently, you can!
You can be non-binary, genderfluid, or one of many other possibilities. You could chose to do no medical steps to change your sex characteristics, you could choose to do only some, or you could choose to change most of your sex characteristics - those are all options. You can also dress in different gender expressions day to day, you could express yourself a mix of ways, or even not change your gender expression at all.
When I started transition, I identified as nonbinary and genderfluid, and it was just about giving myself permission to wear a dress or feminine clothes and makeup when I felt femme and girlie, wear masculine clothes when I didn’t, and wear a mix when I felt somewhere in the middle. I would use different pronouns based on how I presented that day with my friends. And I didn’t know if I wanted to even use hormones or do any procedures, so I didn’t rush into that and let myself explore first.
If it calls to you and think you might find joy there, know that it is okay to explore that, you have a community that will support you, and you can change your mind later if you decide it’s not for you.
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@siege
I think you're spot on with these categories.
I've felt for some time that there needs to be much more frank and open discussion of "how to tell if you might be trans."
I know people will scream because any one piece of evidence or clue doesn't "mean anything", and folks are especially overprotective of clues that might overlap with just being a gender-nonconforming woman.
But I'm also at the point where I don't care if people get upset, I'd love a long list of "things I didn't know were a sign I was trans" for all genders, to be floating around the internet. And people with like 5 of them could be "hmm!" and people with 50 of them could have a good cry and a life change.@valentine @siege The GDB was kind of that for me, and I've seen a few other lists floating around (mostly transfem focused, though I don't know if that is a tendency for which lists exist or just my own identity steering what I see).
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@jens there are in-between zones of being trans if that feels right to you! The key is, if you would feel better living your gender differently, you can!
You can be non-binary, genderfluid, or one of many other possibilities. You could chose to do no medical steps to change your sex characteristics, you could choose to do only some, or you could choose to change most of your sex characteristics - those are all options. You can also dress in different gender expressions day to day, you could express yourself a mix of ways, or even not change your gender expression at all.
When I started transition, I identified as nonbinary and genderfluid, and it was just about giving myself permission to wear a dress or feminine clothes and makeup when I felt femme and girlie, wear masculine clothes when I didn’t, and wear a mix when I felt somewhere in the middle. I would use different pronouns based on how I presented that day with my friends. And I didn’t know if I wanted to even use hormones or do any procedures, so I didn’t rush into that and let myself explore first.
If it calls to you and think you might find joy there, know that it is okay to explore that, you have a community that will support you, and you can change your mind later if you decide it’s not for you.
@JoscelynTransient I don't know if I got my point across at all, but I want to express my gratitude anyway. Because I can see that your response is meant to be encouraging, and it certainly is kind.
What I want to get across, though, is something else entirely. I guess it's more like this question whether turquoise is a shade of green, or a shade of blue.
There's evidence that this distinction is largely *cultural*. In some cultures it is strongly associated with one, in others with the other.
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@JoscelynTransient I don't know if I got my point across at all, but I want to express my gratitude anyway. Because I can see that your response is meant to be encouraging, and it certainly is kind.
What I want to get across, though, is something else entirely. I guess it's more like this question whether turquoise is a shade of green, or a shade of blue.
There's evidence that this distinction is largely *cultural*. In some cultures it is strongly associated with one, in others with the other.
@JoscelynTransient How I feel about myself is very similar to turquoise.
Cishet folk assume I'm cishet, trans folk may want me to be trans simply because I am not obviously cishet.
I don't feel a need to be in either category.
Now the screenshotted post above, that's a little more on the side of one interpretation, but holding on to the other. I get the reactions folk had on this thread.
I just... want to urge you to also consider that turquoise is turquoise, not green/blue.
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@JoscelynTransient How I feel about myself is very similar to turquoise.
Cishet folk assume I'm cishet, trans folk may want me to be trans simply because I am not obviously cishet.
I don't feel a need to be in either category.
Now the screenshotted post above, that's a little more on the side of one interpretation, but holding on to the other. I get the reactions folk had on this thread.
I just... want to urge you to also consider that turquoise is turquoise, not green/blue.
@JoscelynTransient I won't be offended if you consider it green or blue, mind you. I just want to carve a space for turquoise being fine just being turqouise, away from all that green/blue distinction, if that makes sense.
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@JoscelynTransient I don't know if I got my point across at all, but I want to express my gratitude anyway. Because I can see that your response is meant to be encouraging, and it certainly is kind.
What I want to get across, though, is something else entirely. I guess it's more like this question whether turquoise is a shade of green, or a shade of blue.
There's evidence that this distinction is largely *cultural*. In some cultures it is strongly associated with one, in others with the other.
@jens gender diversity definitely is something that is different culture to culture, for sure! In some cultures, they have 3, 4, or even more genders. Some of these look similar to what people today would call trans men and trans women, but some don’t. Transness is just a way of understanding some of this based on how things are in Western countries where we were forced to think there is only one way to be a man and one way to be a woman. My wife for example, a Filipina, identifies both as a Bakla and a trans woman because her identity is primarily rooted in her culture.
And the metaphor of turquoise is great! Maybe some people are sky blue and some are pastel pink, but some are dark blue or neon pink or purple or turquoise or yellow and off the spectrum altogether. Some people are told they are blue and discover they are actually purple or pink or maybe even just a different shade of blue. And the words we use are just ways of trying to identify and describe parts of the spectrum to understand what each other are talking about.
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@jens gender diversity definitely is something that is different culture to culture, for sure! In some cultures, they have 3, 4, or even more genders. Some of these look similar to what people today would call trans men and trans women, but some don’t. Transness is just a way of understanding some of this based on how things are in Western countries where we were forced to think there is only one way to be a man and one way to be a woman. My wife for example, a Filipina, identifies both as a Bakla and a trans woman because her identity is primarily rooted in her culture.
And the metaphor of turquoise is great! Maybe some people are sky blue and some are pastel pink, but some are dark blue or neon pink or purple or turquoise or yellow and off the spectrum altogether. Some people are told they are blue and discover they are actually purple or pink or maybe even just a different shade of blue. And the words we use are just ways of trying to identify and describe parts of the spectrum to understand what each other are talking about.
@jens I think a lot of us would be happy to support you as turquoise
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@jens I think a lot of us would be happy to support you as turquoise
@JoscelynTransient THAT I got, and I'm very happy about. That's why I don't want to push back to the point of arguing, either.
Anyway, I hijacked this enough. Thank you for your thoughts!
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@JoscelynTransient I won't be offended if you consider it green or blue, mind you. I just want to carve a space for turquoise being fine just being turqouise, away from all that green/blue distinction, if that makes sense.
@jens it's like, people are so busy deciding whether the turquoise paint fits in the drawer with the blues or the greens, they forget that that's not what art is about.
Every shade is its own thing. Every person is their own person. Paint is for painting and life is for living.
@JoscelynTransient -
@jens it's like, people are so busy deciding whether the turquoise paint fits in the drawer with the blues or the greens, they forget that that's not what art is about.
Every shade is its own thing. Every person is their own person. Paint is for painting and life is for living.
@JoscelynTransient@Tattie I don't think that was so much the case here, but that would be the extreme, yes.
I run into this issue a fair bit. I have an urge to categorize, and I think it's generally a human urge. In my case, it may even be stronger, because autism makes it uncomfortable when things don't fit.
Once I discovered multiple categories can apply simultaneously, I was a lot happier. And when you then apply duck typing, categories fit the messy world even better.
In that sense,...
