AI Controls (formerly 'kill switch') are landing in today's Firefox Nightly, and will land with Firefox 148 later this month.
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@jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @jaffathecake This is disgusting. You've spent multiple discussion threads ignoring central issue(s) and going off on tangents, focusing on irrelevant details, and just generally avoiding even mentioning the things people are actually concerned about. And now you're trying to turn this around by claiming Duke is avoiding an issue? And putting words in his mouth by claiming he is putting words in your mouth when no such thing happened? All that just to avoid talking about the core issues in this thread?
Are you a professional gaslighter or something?
Before this AI nonsense, I used to recommend (or straight up install) Firefox to friends, acquaintances and family, but I don't think I ever will again. I feel grossed out.
@barubary @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard
Should the gaslighting be opt-out?
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@jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @jaffathecake This is disgusting. You've spent multiple discussion threads ignoring central issue(s) and going off on tangents, focusing on irrelevant details, and just generally avoiding even mentioning the things people are actually concerned about. And now you're trying to turn this around by claiming Duke is avoiding an issue? And putting words in his mouth by claiming he is putting words in your mouth when no such thing happened? All that just to avoid talking about the core issues in this thread?
Are you a professional gaslighter or something?
Before this AI nonsense, I used to recommend (or straight up install) Firefox to friends, acquaintances and family, but I don't think I ever will again. I feel grossed out.
@barubary I find the pattern of sneaking in little accusations into longer messages particularly dishonest and distasteful. So no, I do not let people get away with that. Like the accusation of calling people crazy, it's deliberate, and if challenging people who do that is disgusting, I guess that's what I am.
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@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social
Please invert the default: let people who want #AI enhancements enable them in the settings.
@alextecplayz@techhub.social@giacomo @alextecplayz I don't think it's particularly unusual to offer features at the point they might be useful. This follows the pattern of e.g. asking for microphone permission. You're asked at a time that it might be useful to you, you don't have to say yes, and there are ways to avoid ever being asked.
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@giacomo the features don't do anything until you interact with them (like in this screenshot).
At this point, a local model is downloaded, and the processing is done entirely on device, preserving privacy.
Same goes for translation. It happens on device whereas most other browsers send the text off-device.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social
So people can trigger a download by error clicking on that huge popup wide button, right?
Isn't that a well studied example of #DarkPattern?
How many times such button will be shown? Each time a user create a new tab or only the first time?
Each time you raise the probability of erroneous click!
Please make these #AI enhancements fully opt-in.
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@barubary I find the pattern of sneaking in little accusations into longer messages particularly dishonest and distasteful. So no, I do not let people get away with that. Like the accusation of calling people crazy, it's deliberate, and if challenging people who do that is disgusting, I guess that's what I am.
@jaffathecake @barubary but are you capable of actually directly addressing and engaging with the fact that multiple people keep on telling you "no, I don't want that thing that you're talking about"?
it appears that you have an impression that people here are hostile towards your responses. I posit that _your_ continual evasion and non-engagement of this matter is why. as many others have.
so, y'know, maybe try other, better responses.. up to you tho
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@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social
So people can trigger a download by error clicking on that huge popup wide button, right?
Isn't that a well studied example of #DarkPattern?
How many times such button will be shown? Each time a user create a new tab or only the first time?
Each time you raise the probability of erroneous click!
Please make these #AI enhancements fully opt-in.@giacomo it doesn't show for each tab - it's when creating a tab group. The AI Controls let you hide these entry points.
And again, I want to stress that these are local models, so privacy is preserved.
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@giacomo it doesn't show for each tab - it's when creating a tab group. The AI Controls let you hide these entry points.
And again, I want to stress that these are local models, so privacy is preserved.
@giacomo I guess your point about mis-clicks equally applies to permission prompts. The good news is this can be, in both cases, undone.
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@giacomo @alextecplayz I don't think it's particularly unusual to offer features at the point they might be useful. This follows the pattern of e.g. asking for microphone permission. You're asked at a time that it might be useful to you, you don't have to say yes, and there are ways to avoid ever being asked.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social
Not the same thing #Firefox devs: I cannot do a video call without the microphone on, but I can totally open a new tab without #AI assistance!
So the first permission is required to serve my request, the second is just you advertizing a feature you want people to use.
@alextecplayz@techhub.social
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@giacomo @alextecplayz I don't think it's particularly unusual to offer features at the point they might be useful. This follows the pattern of e.g. asking for microphone permission. You're asked at a time that it might be useful to you, you don't have to say yes, and there are ways to avoid ever being asked.
@firefoxwebdevs Makes sense IMO, that's a better explanation. If the features don't run until the user explicitly wants to use the features, it's fine by me.
Does the AI Controls page specify that the AI models aren't downloaded until the specific feature(s) are used for the first time? Or does a linked help article from that page specify this?
It'd be nice to inform users about this in the browser, maybe even offer some details on how much storage the models use, and a link to the about:addons page for On-device AI to manage the installed models.
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@jaffathecake @barubary but are you capable of actually directly addressing and engaging with the fact that multiple people keep on telling you "no, I don't want that thing that you're talking about"?
it appears that you have an impression that people here are hostile towards your responses. I posit that _your_ continual evasion and non-engagement of this matter is why. as many others have.
so, y'know, maybe try other, better responses.. up to you tho
@froztbyte @barubary I don't doubt the honesty of people saying they don't want a particular feature to be available to them, or anyone else. Given it's more of a statement, I'm not sure what the acceptable response is, other than "ack".
I posted this a few weeks ago which I felt was a broad acknowledgement https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115859962325484652
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AI Controls (formerly 'kill switch') are landing in today's Firefox Nightly, and will land with Firefox 148 later this month.
For the full details, see the Firefox blog https://blog.mozilla.org/en/firefox/ai-controls/
@firefoxwebdevs is there a way to:
- do this via about:config?
- keep local translations enabled?
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@barubary I find the pattern of sneaking in little accusations into longer messages particularly dishonest and distasteful. So no, I do not let people get away with that. Like the accusation of calling people crazy, it's deliberate, and if challenging people who do that is disgusting, I guess that's what I am.
@jaffathecake No, that is not disgusting. And I did not say that was disgusting. I resent your implication that that is what I said, and I find the pattern of sneaking in little accusations into longer messages particularly dishonest and distasteful. It's deliberate and I find it disgusting.
"So no, I do not let people get away with that." What are you even talking about? That sentence is phrased like an answer, but it does not respond to any question I asked.
(Also, you went from "[thing] is disgusting" in my message to "[completely different thing] is disgusting" in your reply and ended on "if [completely different thing] is disgusting, I guess that's what I am", insinuating someone had called you personally disgusting. Which no one had even hinted at before your reply.)
Why are you talking at me if you're not going to respond to what I actually said?
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@firefoxwebdevs Makes sense IMO, that's a better explanation. If the features don't run until the user explicitly wants to use the features, it's fine by me.
Does the AI Controls page specify that the AI models aren't downloaded until the specific feature(s) are used for the first time? Or does a linked help article from that page specify this?
It'd be nice to inform users about this in the browser, maybe even offer some details on how much storage the models use, and a link to the about:addons page for On-device AI to manage the installed models.
@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
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@firefoxwebdevs is there a way to:
- do this via about:config?
- keep local translations enabled?
@schrottkatze about:config is a less reliable way to configure Firefox, but I'm not sure if the setting are reflected there.
The video in the previous post shows blocking all current and future AI features, then specifically re-enabling local translations.
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@giacomo I guess your point about mis-clicks equally applies to permission prompts. The good news is this can be, in both cases, undone.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social
Not quite
The point is that permission prompts are shown when a permission is required to fulfill a user request.
To create a tab group in #Firefox you do not need #AI, so such popup-wide, easy to mis-click, button is a gratuitous waste of user attention. It's just an #ads of a feature that you want people to use and get used to.
As for this being #privacy preserving: where are the models downloaded from? Is it a #CDN that could identify otherwise logged users by their IP and thus learning about the fact they use such model? And how often Firefox will chech for model updates?
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@froztbyte @barubary I don't doubt the honesty of people saying they don't want a particular feature to be available to them, or anyone else. Given it's more of a statement, I'm not sure what the acceptable response is, other than "ack".
I posted this a few weeks ago which I felt was a broad acknowledgement https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115859962325484652
@jaffathecake @barubary “Not able to action” is quite load bearing
I offer to you: you could’ve made another poll, such as the one that outperformed yours. And then you could have taken those values and said in a meeting “hey, it kinda seems none of our users want this”
So I want to ask: are you under a directive that explicitly told you not to do that? Or perhaps under some implicit kind of situation (e.g. “I know $manager won’t listen”) which made you not even consider that?
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@jaffathecake No, that is not disgusting. And I did not say that was disgusting. I resent your implication that that is what I said, and I find the pattern of sneaking in little accusations into longer messages particularly dishonest and distasteful. It's deliberate and I find it disgusting.
"So no, I do not let people get away with that." What are you even talking about? That sentence is phrased like an answer, but it does not respond to any question I asked.
(Also, you went from "[thing] is disgusting" in my message to "[completely different thing] is disgusting" in your reply and ended on "if [completely different thing] is disgusting, I guess that's what I am", insinuating someone had called you personally disgusting. Which no one had even hinted at before your reply.)
Why are you talking at me if you're not going to respond to what I actually said?
@barubary your "this is disgusting" point was in reply to me challenging someone on sneaking untrue accusations into their longer posts. That sneaky behaviour is what I was referring to when I said "I do not let people get away with that".
I did give you the benefit of the doubt with the "if". I now know you're referring to something else.
Yes, there was a tangent, but if people don't want me to pick up on deliberate false accusations in their messages, I suggest they not make them.
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@schrottkatze about:config is a less reliable way to configure Firefox, but I'm not sure if the setting are reflected there.
The video in the previous post shows blocking all current and future AI features, then specifically re-enabling local translations.
@firefoxwebdevs oki good
I'd love if this stuff is either configurable via about:config or policies, since I'm able to generate those via nix but im not able access the normal settings which caused me quite some long nights of cursing and debugging in the past
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@barubary your "this is disgusting" point was in reply to me challenging someone on sneaking untrue accusations into their longer posts. That sneaky behaviour is what I was referring to when I said "I do not let people get away with that".
I did give you the benefit of the doubt with the "if". I now know you're referring to something else.
Yes, there was a tangent, but if people don't want me to pick up on deliberate false accusations in their messages, I suggest they not make them.
your "this is disgusting" point was in reply to me challenging someone on sneaking untrue accusations into their longer posts
No. This is a direct lie.
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@jaffathecake @barubary “Not able to action” is quite load bearing
I offer to you: you could’ve made another poll, such as the one that outperformed yours. And then you could have taken those values and said in a meeting “hey, it kinda seems none of our users want this”
So I want to ask: are you under a directive that explicitly told you not to do that? Or perhaps under some implicit kind of situation (e.g. “I know $manager won’t listen”) which made you not even consider that?
> are you under a directive that explicitly told you not to do that?
No.
> Or perhaps under some implicit kind of situation (e.g. “I know $manager won’t listen”) which made you not even consider that?
No, but a poll that gives me the evidence to say "hey, you know that place that has a strong representation of people who don't like AI? They don't like AI." did not seem like a good use of my time.
