AI Controls (formerly 'kill switch') are landing in today's Firefox Nightly, and will land with Firefox 148 later this month.
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“You can review and block the use of AI” sure doesn’t sound like opt-in to me.
@jdp23@neuromatch.social @drahardja@sfba.social @firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social @alextecplayz@techhub.social
It reminds me of this old forum post in an argument about D&D. One person claimed that his "opinion" is that following the rules is "cheating" if it leads to outcomes he doesn't like. Another person respondedThat's not... that's not how opinions work. You can't just opinion your way out of definitions. It's like me saying, "In my opinion, I'm typing this post on a banana." It's just not what's happening.
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@firefoxwebdevs
Where can you find the different definitions for opt-in?
I only know one.@bicycle @firefoxwebdevs @alextecplayz
Probably in the same place that Trump finds multiple definitions of consent.
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@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
You’re into “she really means yes when she says no” territory here and you should take some time off to think about what you’re doing here.
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@giacomo @alextecplayz I don't think it's particularly unusual to offer features at the point they might be useful. This follows the pattern of e.g. asking for microphone permission. You're asked at a time that it might be useful to you, you don't have to say yes, and there are ways to avoid ever being asked.
@firefoxwebdevs
This is - I believe - the best UX so far. If a feature is activated *after* a user interaction, this is good enough opt-in approach, that also balances a little marketing. I, for example, would like an AI tab grouper; but I wouldn't be able to know it exists if I dont firefox changelog (that avg user never do). -
@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
@firefoxwebdevs Nobody who hasn't managed to replace their mental capacity with corporate doublethink has different definitions for opt in.
Do better
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@ada would you feel comfortable filing a bug report about this on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/home?
@firefoxwebdevs
Where is the full change log of android version located? I would like to find out which exact version introduced device/screen lock on private tabs - that seemed to be the issue. -
@firefoxwebdevs
This is - I believe - the best UX so far. If a feature is activated *after* a user interaction, this is good enough opt-in approach, that also balances a little marketing. I, for example, would like an AI tab grouper; but I wouldn't be able to know it exists if I dont firefox changelog (that avg user never do).@alvan@social.lol
#Firefox doesn't "balance a little marketing": in the screenshot provided by @firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social you can see at least two #DarkPatterns at work:- a popup-wide button
- no mention of #AI whatsoever: "Suggest more of my tabs" is a very misleading label for "opt-in into AI controlled tabs from now on"!
And note that this has nothing to do with your personal preferences or people reading changelogs: as others have pointed out, if Firefox is so eagger to let people know about the new AI features, the could just showcase them just after update, providing a non misleading button to enabled each of them, like many other software do: https://ui-patterns.com/patterns/Guided-tour
As it stands, and given the alternatives, Mozilla #UX is overly malicious and I guess it would not pass any serious #GDPR compliance check.
Indeed I still wait for an answer to these questions: https://snac.tesio.it/giacomo/p/1770122154.401646
I guess it's because those model are updated frequently from #BigTech's servers around the world and Mozilla doesn't want people to realize how often their online status is revealed to such corporations through update checks by their " #privacy friendly" Firefox AI.
@alextecplayz@techhub.social
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@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
Really. The way you put it, you must think that people are idiots.
People have different opinions on what "fuck you" means. Someone thinks that it is literal, while someone thinks it is an abstract concept, so we are letting you decide how best implement the feature:
Fuck you
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@firefoxwebdevs
Where can you find the different definitions for opt-in?
I only know one.@bicycle @firefoxwebdevs @alextecplayz he asked his fellow marketers
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@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
@firefoxwebdevs @alextecplayz The only way people can have different definitions of "opt in" is if some people deliberately misread "opt in" because they do not want to read what's there, and which is that unless and until the user *opts* to be "*in", they must be left *out*.
And the only reason why someone might want to misread "opt in" is if they want to get users "in" without said users' opting so.
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@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
You must think we are all fucking stupid, aren't you?
I can understand a business decision in which I disagree with, but I don like to be talked like a child.
This is extremely disrespectful and I will never put my trust in your softwares from now on.Shame on you
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AI Controls (formerly 'kill switch') are landing in today's Firefox Nightly, and will land with Firefox 148 later this month.
For the full details, see the Firefox blog https://blog.mozilla.org/en/firefox/ai-controls/
@firefoxwebdevs Still not coming back.
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AI Controls (formerly 'kill switch') are landing in today's Firefox Nightly, and will land with Firefox 148 later this month.
For the full details, see the Firefox blog https://blog.mozilla.org/en/firefox/ai-controls/
@firefoxwebdevs Thanks for giving me the kick I needed to start my next coding endeavour. I’ve checked out the Servo repo and will be looking at ways I can contribute to a next gen AI free browser.
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@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
In and out are not difficult concepts. How can you even claim there are different 'definitions' of enforcing an option by default to something a user can decide to enable if needed?
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AI Controls (formerly 'kill switch') are landing in today's Firefox Nightly, and will land with Firefox 148 later this month.
For the full details, see the Firefox blog https://blog.mozilla.org/en/firefox/ai-controls/
@firefoxwebdevs Apart from disabling AI features of Firefox itself I would also like to have a choice of search engines without AI. For example, DuckDuckGo has a no AI version at https://noai.duckduckgo.com/ .
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@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
@firefoxwebdevs @alextecplayz No, everyone¹ has the same, simple definition of opt-in: the user must take some deliberate action in order to turn on the feature. It's really that simple.
You don't want to use the term "opt-in" because *you know it would be a lie*, as that page makes clear the user must take action to _avoid_ having the feature. That's called "opt-out".
1. OK, everyone who isn't being disingenuous slime. Like Mozilla, apparently.
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@giacomo @alextecplayz I don't think it's particularly unusual to offer features at the point they might be useful. This follows the pattern of e.g. asking for microphone permission. You're asked at a time that it might be useful to you, you don't have to say yes, and there are ways to avoid ever being asked.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social @giacomo@snac.tesio.it @alextecplayz@techhub.social Microphone permissions never require going to the settings menu if you don't want to be asked again, you (when initially presented with them) just click "Don't ask again -> No" in the same menu you'd "opt into" them.
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@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social @giacomo@snac.tesio.it @alextecplayz@techhub.social Microphone permissions never require going to the settings menu if you don't want to be asked again, you (when initially presented with them) just click "Don't ask again -> No" in the same menu you'd "opt into" them.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social @giacomo@snac.tesio.it @alextecplayz@techhub.social Adding a second button next to the "AI Feature" simply stating "Don't show these again" that either immediately disables it, or disables it and opens a new tab with the preferences menu in that tab, is a way better UX flow.
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@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social @giacomo@snac.tesio.it @alextecplayz@techhub.social Adding a second button next to the "AI Feature" simply stating "Don't show these again" that either immediately disables it, or disables it and opens a new tab with the preferences menu in that tab, is a way better UX flow.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social @giacomo@snac.tesio.it @alextecplayz@techhub.social Also, clearly labeling it as "Enable AI Tab Group Suggestions" (or similar) or having a prompt like the one below (based loosely on Firefox Design Guidelines)
which is, whilst not "perfect", clearly a "Allow" -> Enables use in general, as described above it. Unless and until the user changes their mind. and "Deny" -> Disables it. Forever. Unless the user says otherwise. Learn more -> Hey I want some special setting or just want more info.
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@ivanvector @richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard I like Vivaldi but I dislike a Chromium monoculture, so I'll begrudgingly be using a trimmed-down Firefox until Servo is in beta territory.
@ivanvector @richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @farlukar But Servo wull offer only a website Component, right, rather than a full browser? Are there any real open source non-firefox forks left?
