AI Controls (formerly 'kill switch') are landing in today's Firefox Nightly, and will land with Firefox 148 later this month.
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@wojtek it's so nice that Mastodon does 60fps.
Although, sorry, I'll be back in my garage for the web feature videos
@firefoxwebdevs uhm… bummer
I'll try to live with that ( <hand on the forhead>farewall cruel world</hand on the forehead> ) -
@liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard
What Jake has done here — perhaps this was his goal — is change the topic of the discussion from "Does AI belong in Firefox?" to an increasingly recondite and trivial row over who said what and why are they acting this way. I guess one might call this artful deflection. But it actually looks like somebody ducking the hard question. "Naa naa naa, I can't hear you!" crowed Jake's subconscious. Verbatim.
@richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard The way that I interpret this discussion with Jake, even if it was not Jake who was personally involved, is that:
- Mozilla was always going to plow ahead with AI anyway
- Mozilla knew that Mastodon represented its largest group of its most enthusiastic supporters and promoters, and that this group is traditionally against AI creep
- They sent someone into this community feigning to solicit feedback in an effort to manufacture consent
- This failed predictably and spectacularly, and that hurt the representative's fee fees
- Now that Mozilla has, through naught but their own actions, completely alienated this community, they can claim that WE don't support THEM (c.f. Jake's false victim complex) and can claim moral high ground doing the thing they were so obviously going to do anyway.So anyway, I've been a vocal supporter of Mozilla and its predecessors since the days of Netscape Navigator. A week ago I installed Vivaldi, and don't plan to go back.
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@richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard The way that I interpret this discussion with Jake, even if it was not Jake who was personally involved, is that:
- Mozilla was always going to plow ahead with AI anyway
- Mozilla knew that Mastodon represented its largest group of its most enthusiastic supporters and promoters, and that this group is traditionally against AI creep
- They sent someone into this community feigning to solicit feedback in an effort to manufacture consent
- This failed predictably and spectacularly, and that hurt the representative's fee fees
- Now that Mozilla has, through naught but their own actions, completely alienated this community, they can claim that WE don't support THEM (c.f. Jake's false victim complex) and can claim moral high ground doing the thing they were so obviously going to do anyway.So anyway, I've been a vocal supporter of Mozilla and its predecessors since the days of Netscape Navigator. A week ago I installed Vivaldi, and don't plan to go back.
@ivanvector Succinctly: Mozilla is doing a lot of *talking* about their decisions, but not a lot of listening. They're here to tell us they're doing it, and are surveying the talking points people are going to use against them. Even if that's not their plan, that's effectively what they have actually done.
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@richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard The way that I interpret this discussion with Jake, even if it was not Jake who was personally involved, is that:
- Mozilla was always going to plow ahead with AI anyway
- Mozilla knew that Mastodon represented its largest group of its most enthusiastic supporters and promoters, and that this group is traditionally against AI creep
- They sent someone into this community feigning to solicit feedback in an effort to manufacture consent
- This failed predictably and spectacularly, and that hurt the representative's fee fees
- Now that Mozilla has, through naught but their own actions, completely alienated this community, they can claim that WE don't support THEM (c.f. Jake's false victim complex) and can claim moral high ground doing the thing they were so obviously going to do anyway.So anyway, I've been a vocal supporter of Mozilla and its predecessors since the days of Netscape Navigator. A week ago I installed Vivaldi, and don't plan to go back.
@ivanvector @richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard I like Vivaldi but I dislike a Chromium monoculture, so I'll begrudgingly be using a trimmed-down Firefox until Servo is in beta territory.
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@richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard The way that I interpret this discussion with Jake, even if it was not Jake who was personally involved, is that:
- Mozilla was always going to plow ahead with AI anyway
- Mozilla knew that Mastodon represented its largest group of its most enthusiastic supporters and promoters, and that this group is traditionally against AI creep
- They sent someone into this community feigning to solicit feedback in an effort to manufacture consent
- This failed predictably and spectacularly, and that hurt the representative's fee fees
- Now that Mozilla has, through naught but their own actions, completely alienated this community, they can claim that WE don't support THEM (c.f. Jake's false victim complex) and can claim moral high ground doing the thing they were so obviously going to do anyway.So anyway, I've been a vocal supporter of Mozilla and its predecessors since the days of Netscape Navigator. A week ago I installed Vivaldi, and don't plan to go back.
@ivanvector @richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard “even if it was not Jake who was personally involved”
It's easy to miss, but it's right there, about half a second into the OPs gif: -
@ivanvector @richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard “even if it was not Jake who was personally involved”
It's easy to miss, but it's right there, about half a second into the OPs gif:@farlukar @ivanvector @richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard I changed from Chrome to Firefox last year because I was tired of Gemini on everything, and don't I feel like an asshole now
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@farlukar @ivanvector @richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard I changed from Chrome to Firefox last year because I was tired of Gemini on everything, and don't I feel like an asshole now
@PavelASamsonov At least the hop to forks is like stepping over an invisible property line instead of a flight of stairs? It’s an insult we have to, though.
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@wojtek
@wariat @fabio @firefoxwebdevs Because it exposes users to a wide variety of technical and cognitive hazards, has a significant labor rights and ecological impact, is changing the structure of public discourse in ways that are broadly incompatible with democracy, and represents a fundamental change in what the piece of software the users are installing does, ontologically. Why do you think it's justified forcing that change on anyone who doesn't notice it's there or understand why they might not want it?@dymaxion This did not get the recognition it deserves for breadth and lucidity despite high concision, so *thank you* for putting it out there, even if the prompting party was about as receptive as a shoe-pebble.
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@richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard The way that I interpret this discussion with Jake, even if it was not Jake who was personally involved, is that:
- Mozilla was always going to plow ahead with AI anyway
- Mozilla knew that Mastodon represented its largest group of its most enthusiastic supporters and promoters, and that this group is traditionally against AI creep
- They sent someone into this community feigning to solicit feedback in an effort to manufacture consent
- This failed predictably and spectacularly, and that hurt the representative's fee fees
- Now that Mozilla has, through naught but their own actions, completely alienated this community, they can claim that WE don't support THEM (c.f. Jake's false victim complex) and can claim moral high ground doing the thing they were so obviously going to do anyway.So anyway, I've been a vocal supporter of Mozilla and its predecessors since the days of Netscape Navigator. A week ago I installed Vivaldi, and don't plan to go back.
@ivanvector @richardgrant @liquor_american @jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard@circumstances.run
At this point, it looks like Mozilla leadership is deliberately trying to alienate their user base to shrink Firefox market share. Obviously this serves Google's interests.
I've been wondering lately how Mozilla leadership got there (what's the process to name and remove them?). Was Google involved in putting them in this position? How do we replace them with people who care about Firefox users instead?
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@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs they're aware of the sentiment. I'm sure you're aware that Mastodon has a high representation of folks who don't like AI, so presenting evidence that Mastodon users don't like AI is kinda… well… not really useful.
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @jaffathecake what about the same results appearing on mozilla connect, on github, on hacker news, on lobsters discussions? Whenever i go i just see a shared sentiment of criticism. Are all discussion places biased by no-AI enthusiastic power users brigading, or there is a slight probability that maybe there is too a bias inside Mozilla?
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@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @jaffathecake what about the same results appearing on mozilla connect, on github, on hacker news, on lobsters discussions? Whenever i go i just see a shared sentiment of criticism. Are all discussion places biased by no-AI enthusiastic power users brigading, or there is a slight probability that maybe there is too a bias inside Mozilla?
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @jaffathecake i KNOW that it is impossibile, or at least very difficult, to make everyone happy but right now the opt-out kill button is just a tentative for damage control. I very well remember a lot of discussions a while ago when mozilla tried to restart and innovate Thunderbird. Still, even when a very minor vocal presence of old users were disappointed by the new UI/UX proposal, the team was able to address their concerns in very effective way, while integrating new features. This is not what is happening right now.
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@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
@firefoxwebdevs @alextecplayz “people have different definitions of opt-in”
How the hell did we get here?
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@firefoxwebdevs @alextecplayz “people have different definitions of opt-in”
How the hell did we get here?
“You can review and block the use of AI” sure doesn’t sound like opt-in to me.
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@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
@firefoxwebdevs I feel like if the instructions are how to disable the features, then by definition that's an opt-out model.
I don't love popups, but I'd expect opt in to just throw a quick "we released X, do you want to try it out?" -
@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
@firefoxwebdevs
Where can you find the different definitions for opt-in?
I only know one. -
“You can review and block the use of AI” sure doesn’t sound like opt-in to me.
@jdp23@neuromatch.social @drahardja@sfba.social @firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social @alextecplayz@techhub.social
It reminds me of this old forum post in an argument about D&D. One person claimed that his "opinion" is that following the rules is "cheating" if it leads to outcomes he doesn't like. Another person respondedThat's not... that's not how opinions work. You can't just opinion your way out of definitions. It's like me saying, "In my opinion, I'm typing this post on a banana." It's just not what's happening.
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@firefoxwebdevs
Where can you find the different definitions for opt-in?
I only know one.@bicycle @firefoxwebdevs @alextecplayz
Probably in the same place that Trump finds multiple definitions of consent.
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@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
You’re into “she really means yes when she says no” territory here and you should take some time off to think about what you’re doing here.
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@giacomo @alextecplayz I don't think it's particularly unusual to offer features at the point they might be useful. This follows the pattern of e.g. asking for microphone permission. You're asked at a time that it might be useful to you, you don't have to say yes, and there are ways to avoid ever being asked.
@firefoxwebdevs
This is - I believe - the best UX so far. If a feature is activated *after* a user interaction, this is good enough opt-in approach, that also balances a little marketing. I, for example, would like an AI tab grouper; but I wouldn't be able to know it exists if I dont firefox changelog (that avg user never do). -
@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it
@firefoxwebdevs Nobody who hasn't managed to replace their mental capacity with corporate doublethink has different definitions for opt in.
Do better
