Nothing but winning.
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The cult will fall back in line, but the #pedo #GOP has lost the #independent voters, the largest cohort of voters in the #USA, for decades.
@Bandersnatch @dalfen @DemocracyMattersALot Y’all have more faith in the electorate than I do. The fact that Agent Orange’s candidacy was even viable in 2020 or 2024 tells me we have many millions of voters sitting on the continuum between having no scruples or having no idea what is going on.
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@Bandersnatch @dalfen @DemocracyMattersALot Y’all have more faith in the electorate than I do. The fact that Agent Orange’s candidacy was even viable in 2020 or 2024 tells me we have many millions of voters sitting on the continuum between having no scruples or having no idea what is going on.
@mkb @dalfen @DemocracyMattersALot
The GOP has lost 251 of the last 281 special elections since Trump was reelected. Highlights include a 31 point flip in a deep red Texas district & a 17 point swing in deep red Louisiana district.
Those independents may have not have much in the scruples department, but Trump has directly, obviously and indefensibly made their lives much worse.
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@violetmadder @Bandersnatch @dalfen @DemocracyMattersALot By “viable” I simply mean that it was credible that Agent Orange might win. The vote in 2020 was far closer than it should have been.
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@violetmadder @Bandersnatch @dalfen @DemocracyMattersALot By “viable” I simply mean that it was credible that Agent Orange might win. The vote in 2020 was far closer than it should have been.
@mkb @violetmadder @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot 'Agent Orange' – good term
And I agree that the vote was much closer than it should have been, but some of that could have been attributed to protest votes (or non-votes) rather than a strong base producing such voting turnout. The number of true loyalists might be lower than it seemed, as evidenced by MAGA voices (prominent and common) who are now speaking out against his actions.
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@violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot Great points and well said.
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@violetmadder @dalfen @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot
One of the foremost experts on election security is right here on Mastodon: @mattblaze. Tools such as risk-limiting audits can enhance security considerably.
That said, R’s have been working hard to put their collective thumb on the scale, often right out in the open.
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@Bandersnatch @dalfen @DemocracyMattersALot Y’all have more faith in the electorate than I do. The fact that Agent Orange’s candidacy was even viable in 2020 or 2024 tells me we have many millions of voters sitting on the continuum between having no scruples or having no idea what is going on.
@mkb @Bandersnatch @dalfen @DemocracyMattersALot I have a neighbor who supports Trump. She thinks all the horrible things that is being reported that he's doing is a lie and it's not true. Really
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@violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot There is lots of dramatic persuasion & propaganda in the US, but as far as actual (prosecutable) fraud, the conservative Heritage Foundation only lists 1,620 incidents in 43 years, essentially nil (~0.00076% for presidential elections).
Exit polling happens all over the USA. States' results are openly publicized. I'll research it more.
https://mstdn.social/@dalfen/116247462411917436
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https://edition.cnn.com/election/2024/exit-polls/national-results/general/president/0
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https://www.realclearpolling.com/latest-polls
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https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/elections-and-presidents/exit-polls -
@mkb @Bandersnatch @dalfen @DemocracyMattersALot I have a neighbor who supports Trump. She thinks all the horrible things that is being reported that he's doing is a lie and it's not true. Really
@FaithinBones @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot I know there are a lot of people like that, unfortunately. I have also heard others who are now against various things that Trump is doing, like his "little excursion" in Iran. I hope there are more of the latter.
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@violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot @mattblaze How would you do it better?
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@violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot @mattblaze How would you make it open source?
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@violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot @mattblaze Oh sorry to bother you. I was just curious about your ideas.
Thanks for the reference.
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@violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot @mattblaze Oh sorry to bother you. I was just curious about your ideas.
Thanks for the reference.
@dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot While there might be good public policy reasons to use open source software and designs for election systems, there's probably very little security benefit to be gained by doing so. Open source software is just as subject to malicious tampering and bugs as closed source.
The approach favored by experts involves *assuming* the software is compromised, and conducting routine post-election audits on the ballots to verify the tally.
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@dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot While there might be good public policy reasons to use open source software and designs for election systems, there's probably very little security benefit to be gained by doing so. Open source software is just as subject to malicious tampering and bugs as closed source.
The approach favored by experts involves *assuming* the software is compromised, and conducting routine post-election audits on the ballots to verify the tally.
@mattblaze @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot My view on open source code and voting is that while open source is useful in many cases it is not necessarily so in voting code.
Why? One of the argument of O-source code is inspection. It is a good argument, if it were done (may AI tools can do good work here - but what is the criteria they would use to tell good from bad?)
In our effort we concluded that while inspection is good, testing is better - and that anyone ought to be able to test (and that vendors ought to supply test gear), *and* that test results be published to all.
There is a side effect - we want to encourage vendors to build good voting systems (software+hardware+procedures). So we ought to leave some incentives, like not requiring publication of the code (or parts of the code) and limit open copying/use - leaving some room for innovation and profit.
We also tend to forget toolchains - which are often a significant overlooked vulnerability.
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@mattblaze @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot My view on open source code and voting is that while open source is useful in many cases it is not necessarily so in voting code.
Why? One of the argument of O-source code is inspection. It is a good argument, if it were done (may AI tools can do good work here - but what is the criteria they would use to tell good from bad?)
In our effort we concluded that while inspection is good, testing is better - and that anyone ought to be able to test (and that vendors ought to supply test gear), *and* that test results be published to all.
There is a side effect - we want to encourage vendors to build good voting systems (software+hardware+procedures). So we ought to leave some incentives, like not requiring publication of the code (or parts of the code) and limit open copying/use - leaving some room for innovation and profit.
We also tend to forget toolchains - which are often a significant overlooked vulnerability.
@karlauerbach @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot There are two major attack vectors for automation in voting systems: (1) Exploitation of bugs to induce malicious behavior, and (2) replacement of the legitimate software with malware.
Open source attempts to address (1), but the "many eyes make all bugs shallow" maxim breaks down as systems become as complex as they are today. And (2) is an inherent problem for precinct equipment, which is vulnerable to tampering.
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@karlauerbach @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot There are two major attack vectors for automation in voting systems: (1) Exploitation of bugs to induce malicious behavior, and (2) replacement of the legitimate software with malware.
Open source attempts to address (1), but the "many eyes make all bugs shallow" maxim breaks down as systems become as complex as they are today. And (2) is an inherent problem for precinct equipment, which is vulnerable to tampering.
@karlauerbach @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot So the approach of trying to completely secure election software is ultimately a fool's errand. That's why modern techniques like risk-limiting audits are so critical.
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@dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot While there might be good public policy reasons to use open source software and designs for election systems, there's probably very little security benefit to be gained by doing so. Open source software is just as subject to malicious tampering and bugs as closed source.
The approach favored by experts involves *assuming* the software is compromised, and conducting routine post-election audits on the ballots to verify the tally.
@mattblaze @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot Commercial software comes with a support model, and competent support is expensive. Competent support with massive demand for a few days a year is even more expensive.
You might want source availability, verifiable builds and more, but the economics of “anyone can use it” that comes with Open Source (tm) is a very very hard tradeoff.
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@violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot @mattblaze How would you do it better?
@dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot @mattblaze
I wonder why electronic voting machines and voting software are necessary at all.
I mean, some software is necessary for summarizing results etc; but as for actual counting, other democracies count votes manually, give (semi) final tallies in just a few hours, and the entire process is extensively audited and leaves detailed trails of every step. -
@mattblaze @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot My view on open source code and voting is that while open source is useful in many cases it is not necessarily so in voting code.
Why? One of the argument of O-source code is inspection. It is a good argument, if it were done (may AI tools can do good work here - but what is the criteria they would use to tell good from bad?)
In our effort we concluded that while inspection is good, testing is better - and that anyone ought to be able to test (and that vendors ought to supply test gear), *and* that test results be published to all.
There is a side effect - we want to encourage vendors to build good voting systems (software+hardware+procedures). So we ought to leave some incentives, like not requiring publication of the code (or parts of the code) and limit open copying/use - leaving some room for innovation and profit.
We also tend to forget toolchains - which are often a significant overlooked vulnerability.
@karlauerbach @mattblaze @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot I hear you all.
Very interesting points and ideas from different perspectives.Our federal election-voting procedures are also largely governed by individual state laws, as directed by the US Constitution, though efforts have been made to enact overarching standards, guidelines, and testing.
https://www.congress.gov/crs_external_products/R/PDF/R47592/R47592.3.pdf
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https://www.eac.gov/
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_Assistance_Commission -
@dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot @mattblaze
I wonder why electronic voting machines and voting software are necessary at all.
I mean, some software is necessary for summarizing results etc; but as for actual counting, other democracies count votes manually, give (semi) final tallies in just a few hours, and the entire process is extensively audited and leaves detailed trails of every step.@mbpaz @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot US elections are - by far- the most complex in the world. We vote on more things, in more ways, than any other democracy. Automation is essential in practice in US election, in ways that it isn't almost everywhere else.
