an interesting thread on Bluesky about why people are choosing to build on #ATProto instead of #ActivityPubhttps://witchsky.app/profile/did:plc:rtf3bjc3w2yn4syxtm4r7jt2/post/3mfrp6tovy22g
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@julian thanks for the summary
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@liaizon im waiting for the truly cursed day when someone decides to stuff a lexicon into activitypubs @context field
@laurenshof watching the lexicon thing unfold and it really just seems like this is how it should work here. It makes the whole division of concerns clearer for everyone
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@liaizon the quote post of the original question also give some good insight
like yeah part of it are the cultural issues, but there are some pretty clear dev-ux points as well why people build on atproto
json-ld, and more specifically, the implicit ideal of data being open ended vs lexicon's being structured is a major part to it imo
@laurenshof @liaizon Off-topic, but how do I open this link on bsky.app?
Tried the old "put the URL in the search box" Mastodon trick, no luck.
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@liaizon the quote post of the original question also give some good insight
like yeah part of it are the cultural issues, but there are some pretty clear dev-ux points as well why people build on atproto
json-ld, and more specifically, the implicit ideal of data being open ended vs lexicon's being structured is a major part to it imo
> @laurenshof@indieweb.social said in an interesting thread on Bluesky about why people are choosing to build on #ATProto instead of #ActivityPubhttps://witchsky.app/profile/did:plc:rtf3bjc3w2yn4syxtm4r7jt2/post/3mfrp6tovy22g:
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> json-ld, and more specifically, the implicit ideal of data being open ended vs lexicon's being structured is a major part to it imoWait what does this mean?
- JSON-LD is technically optional (I only put a token effort into it and only because people complained to me about it)
- Open-ended protocols have a history of being successful precisely due to its open-ended nature (see: HTML)
- Isn't JSON-LD an attempt to bring structure to AP just like Lexicons do to ATProto?
So which one's actually more open-ended? <img class="not-responsive emoji" src="https://activitypub.space/assets/plugins/nodebb-plugin-emoji/emoji/android/1f606.png?v=3463a4088f6" title="
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@oblomov what page wont load?
@liaizon The posts via witchsky.app don't load reliably. Going through the main bluesky webUI works better.
@oblomov There are some "the crypto is built in by design" answers. Some are about how confusing and potentially unstable individual servers are. Most are "I like my services centralized" (ie. central indexing, search and the usual corpo social media stuff). One complaint about racism on fedi.
I'm happy they found a place to build all that away from fedi, far away from fedi. -
@julian you don't want to platform people who are unwelcoming to devs? I think the issue is that a lot of the devs who show up are also totally oblivious to how their stuff effects the network and people who use it and the implications of their code on peoples lives. So I don't think it's as easy as just us being more welcoming to builders either sadly
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@laurenshof @liaizon Off-topic, but how do I open this link on bsky.app?
Tried the old "put the URL in the search box" Mastodon trick, no luck.
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@laurenshof Right, but I'm looking for a user-friendly way to do this. You know, for normies.
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it really matters which part of the system exactly is open ended. atproto's lexicon system is open ended in the sense that everyone can publish any lexicon they want, but each individual lexicon is constraint (by design)
json-ld also technically has this open-ended nature (you can put whatever you want in @context), but then also tries to make it so that this can result in every mesage being parsable by everything else
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it really matters which part of the system exactly is open ended. atproto's lexicon system is open ended in the sense that everyone can publish any lexicon they want, but each individual lexicon is constraint (by design)
json-ld also technically has this open-ended nature (you can put whatever you want in @context), but then also tries to make it so that this can result in every mesage being parsable by everything else
@julian like there is this implicit assumption that every server should be able to read every message type, or at least be able to parse it to determine whether they want to or not
this separations of concerns is much clearer with lexicons: part of your app design is making an explicit choice of 'my app reads these lexicons and disregards the rest'. that distinction is much less clear in activitypub, because you it is so open-ended
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@laurenshof Right, but I'm looking for a user-friendly way to do this. You know, for normies.
@stefan @laurenshof many apps over there have an "open in Bluesky" button on the 3rd party interfaces, this one is just a fork of the main bluesky codebase by someone who added pronoun viewer support which is why I started using it
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@laurenshof Right, but I'm looking for a user-friendly way to do this. You know, for normies.
@stefan @liaizon there isnt any. its bascially the same question of why phanpy doesnt have a button to view a post in ivory.
difference is that phanpy does have a button to view the post on the home instance. but there is no home instance on atproto in that same sense. like it would mean opening the raw record on your pds
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I'm surprised that most of these I don't consider good/very compelling reasons!
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@julian you don't want to platform people who are unwelcoming to devs? I think the issue is that a lot of the devs who show up are also totally oblivious to how their stuff effects the network and people who use it and the implications of their code on peoples lives. So I don't think it's as easy as just us being more welcoming to builders either sadly
@liaizon@social.wake.st I don't want to platform one-sided discussion against the development of new functonality built on top of ActivityPub.
Critique is fine. It's even accepted. I'm not saying that nobody should ever disagree on implementation, design, etc.
The problem here is that the disagreements are not done on a level playing field. You have one side that has judged another without fully understanding the situation (or not having put any thought in besides "I like this person, they don't like you, and therefore you are bad"), having absolutely demonized this person from the very beginning, and you expect that person to start that uphill battle?
It's absolutely no surprise that they choose to leave instead.
It's an absolute fucking miracle that @quillmatiq@mastodon.social and @snarfed.org@fed.brid.gy are still here.
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@foolishowl that's an incredibly unhelpful read on people there tbh
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@stefan @liaizon there isnt any. its bascially the same question of why phanpy doesnt have a button to view a post in ivory.
difference is that phanpy does have a button to view the post on the home instance. but there is no home instance on atproto in that same sense. like it would mean opening the raw record on your pds
@laurenshof Yeah, this all makes sense to me, of course, it's just interesting to see some of the things that have been putting people off the fediverse starting to slowly creep in, like thinking that you need to create a "new Bluesky account" to reply.
Or a conversation I came across yesterday about how "login with your ATProto account" is too confusing, but "login with Bluesky" isn't accurate.
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@laurenshof Yeah, this all makes sense to me, of course, it's just interesting to see some of the things that have been putting people off the fediverse starting to slowly creep in, like thinking that you need to create a "new Bluesky account" to reply.
Or a conversation I came across yesterday about how "login with your ATProto account" is too confusing, but "login with Bluesky" isn't accurate.
@stefan @laurenshof have you seen the https://internethandle.org debacle yet?
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@stefan @laurenshof have you seen the https://internethandle.org debacle yet?
@liaizon Ah, I think I did, but thank you for reminding me!
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@laurenshof Yeah, this all makes sense to me, of course, it's just interesting to see some of the things that have been putting people off the fediverse starting to slowly creep in, like thinking that you need to create a "new Bluesky account" to reply.
Or a conversation I came across yesterday about how "login with your ATProto account" is too confusing, but "login with Bluesky" isn't accurate.
Also, does either of you know how things work in terms of data being in/out of sync between the various PDSes/AppViews?
Eg. is the "missing replies" problem likely to occur in the Atmosphere as well?
Other than, of course, due to accounts being banned on some level.
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Also, does either of you know how things work in terms of data being in/out of sync between the various PDSes/AppViews?
Eg. is the "missing replies" problem likely to occur in the Atmosphere as well?
Other than, of course, due to accounts being banned on some level.
@stefan@stefanbohacek.online you don't miss replies if you store the entirety of the BlueSky network on your relay (apologies if I use the wrong term), or use theirs?
But the solution to not having to store the entirety of bluesky is to store a subset... and if you do that, then... absolutely you'll start missing things.
