It sounds as if electric trucks are great for long-range land transport.
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@david_chisnall and if you put up wires above you can ditch the Batteries alltogether…
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@david_chisnall As someone that worked for a railroad, there are lots of reasons this isn't the solution you think it is.
First, only a single train can be on a given segment of track, unlike trucks which can have dozens.
Second, trains are slower. They are more difficult to control because of the lower friction of steel wheels on steel rails. This also makes it a lot more difficult (read: impossible) for them to travel steep inclines directly. Descending sharp inclines is actually more difficult.
The infrastructure needed for monitoring and controlling trains is a lot more complicated than it is for automobiles / trucks.
The last mile problem: trains are great for moving bulk freight over long distances, but getting that freight to its final destination still requires another mode of transportation.
Trains actually use diesel fuel, they just do it more efficiently by using the fuel to power a generator to produce electricity. Converting them to batteries would have similar issues to electric trucks (IE, the weight required in batteries to power the train). Not to mention a balancing issue: you'd need some way to have the batteries distributed along the length of the train - if you centralize them into the engine or a single car, you create more problems for controlling the train.
There are so many more issues than you've thought of here. I know this was likely meant as a shitpost, but it's not a well considered one.
@unattributed @david_chisnall One train per segment of track - nope that's a solved problem. Trams have done it forever by simple means but for fast trains we have the tech to do it and it's in active use in Europe. Movable blocks are a thing.
Trains are slower. Only in America. Japan has a cargo shinkansen.
Inclines are a solved problem - don't run 5 mile long trains. In fact for high speed rail grades are better than curves.
Rail is not more efficient because it uses a generator
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@unattributed @david_chisnall One train per segment of track - nope that's a solved problem. Trams have done it forever by simple means but for fast trains we have the tech to do it and it's in active use in Europe. Movable blocks are a thing.
Trains are slower. Only in America. Japan has a cargo shinkansen.
Inclines are a solved problem - don't run 5 mile long trains. In fact for high speed rail grades are better than curves.
Rail is not more efficient because it uses a generator
@unattributed @david_chisnall rail is mostly more efficient because the wheels are solid and the track is solid. Tyred vehicles lose loads of energy moving air around tyres - there's a reason they are blazing hot after a drive.
We generally also supply power from wires overhead which is great because your fuel weight is almost zero.
The big issue is the last kilometre problem. Intermodal solves a bunch of it but we really need containers that hop off the train and drive themselves
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Two reasons why not:
Road vehicles can't share the same rail track as cars;
Double-tracking to allow trains to go in both directions at once gets really expensive.@barbra @david_chisnall If you have enough traffic to double track and it pays then the cost is irrelevant, if not you use dynamic loops.
Road vehicles can share tracks with rail btw - we have these things called trams
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It sounds as if electric trucks are great for long-range land transport. But they require heavy batteries, so rather than putting them on the road (where they'll damage the road surface), why don't we build special metal tracks for them to go on? And, on long trips, join a bunch of them together so that you only need one motor and driver for a load of them travelling in a convoy? I bet you could make freight transport a lot more efficient if you did that.
@david_chisnall I like your train of thought!
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It sounds as if electric trucks are great for long-range land transport. But they require heavy batteries, so rather than putting them on the road (where they'll damage the road surface), why don't we build special metal tracks for them to go on? And, on long trips, join a bunch of them together so that you only need one motor and driver for a load of them travelling in a convoy? I bet you could make freight transport a lot more efficient if you did that.
@david_chisnall That's called Railroads.
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@david_chisnall The logistics sector here is adopting electric trucks at accelerating rate. These are 40 to 60 ton vehicles that move the stuff to grocery stores etc. They typically do two driver shifts per day. Interesting thing is that this is all beancounter operations and it's the cheaper option.
@liiwi @david_chisnall Friends I have in trucking tell me the upfront cost is way way higher (but improving) however the operational cost in the UK is something like 25% of the cost of running a diesel truck. Partly that's fuel and partly down time. Trucks do enormous mileage so they spend a surprising amount of time in bits having things replaced due to wear and tear.
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@david_chisnall
Trains are already diesel-electric. Australia has road trains: a transport truck with many (I saw 7) reefer trailers behind. Why not add electric wheel motors and batteries to the reefer tires to have electric road trains. Canada, with the terrific long-distant transports and at-capacity railways, would be a great place to implement. Add in rolling charging embedded in the highways every 500 km and toss some solar panels on top of the reefers. But the oilmen would buy the patent and then bury the idea like GM did with electric cars.@NMBA @david_chisnall Is Canada like the USA though where the trucks and reefers are owned by different people ? That's always been a problem, as well as the fact many trailers spend most of their time parked so it's a very poor return on investment.
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@david_chisnall decades ago, was flabbergasted to learn my first coding job’s employer (a grain co) usually got $30/ton rates for rail shipping across 5 states. Trucking was 6-8 times that, and the inefficiencies of small-lot (not full rail car) really soar from there.
… tell me we couldn’t engineer a way to let folks hook into this: little bins in boxes in pallets in railcars. Matrushka, and a dollar plops something weighty like a pile of books or preserves or etc anywhere across the country.
@InkomTech @david_chisnall We used to do that in the UK. Our rail companies had parcels services, as did nationalised rail. Then we got a right wing nut job government under Thatcher and they broke it all.
There have been some attempts at doing smaller scale intermodal at stations ("minimodal" the obvious one) but it flopped.
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It sounds as if electric trucks are great for long-range land transport. But they require heavy batteries, so rather than putting them on the road (where they'll damage the road surface), why don't we build special metal tracks for them to go on? And, on long trips, join a bunch of them together so that you only need one motor and driver for a load of them travelling in a convoy? I bet you could make freight transport a lot more efficient if you did that.
@david_chisnall I'd be happy to see a high-speed passenger version of said service.
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Two reasons why not:
Road vehicles can't share the same rail track as cars;
Double-tracking to allow trains to go in both directions at once gets really expensive.@barbra @david_chisnall Good points, but worth noting that (1) trams exist, so road sharing is possible (if not always practical!), and (2) rather than double tracks all the way, you only need to have passing loops at the points where opposing trains cross, which can reduce the cost greatly (in the right situation).
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@david_chisnall M hmm... I see where you are going with this. If I could make a note?
You are providing dedicated paths for these electric vehicles already. Why not include one of the "charge as you go" designs, like an electrified rail or overhead cable to reduce the required battery size?
@Epic_Null @david_chisnall Big clockwork spring under the truck and a giant winder in the road you stop at every so often. No cables, no electrical interference, no lithium needed.
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It sounds as if electric trucks are great for long-range land transport. But they require heavy batteries, so rather than putting them on the road (where they'll damage the road surface), why don't we build special metal tracks for them to go on? And, on long trips, join a bunch of them together so that you only need one motor and driver for a load of them travelling in a convoy? I bet you could make freight transport a lot more efficient if you did that.
In China, those ideas are operating in a port context, with cargo shunts.
On the same principle, we need a massive expansion of rail freight.
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@david_chisnall can't fix your railways, all the money's going into proprietary CargoRail now!
and make it more efficient by running the cargo through underground/elevated tunnels that are in complete vacuum so they can go 500mph
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and make it more efficient by running the cargo through underground/elevated tunnels that are in complete vacuum so they can go 500mph
@maya_b @david_chisnall I think that's an actual, real-life brain fart you're recounting here, right?
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@maya_b @david_chisnall I think that's an actual, real-life brain fart you're recounting here, right?
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@NMBA @david_chisnall Is Canada like the USA though where the trucks and reefers are owned by different people ? That's always been a problem, as well as the fact many trailers spend most of their time parked so it's a very poor return on investment.
@etchedpixels @david_chisnall
There's some private operators but most are drivers for a trucking company. I'm thinking there would be container depots along major highways at the edges of cities for the EV truck trains to switch loads and charge/rest, and have smaller e-trucks distribute the containers into the cities. -
but if we're making fun of techbros regurgitating ideas it's just a matter of time before it's forgettgn as a dream (just like the old sci-fi stories that dreamt it up previously)
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@david_chisnall decades ago, was flabbergasted to learn my first coding job’s employer (a grain co) usually got $30/ton rates for rail shipping across 5 states. Trucking was 6-8 times that, and the inefficiencies of small-lot (not full rail car) really soar from there.
… tell me we couldn’t engineer a way to let folks hook into this: little bins in boxes in pallets in railcars. Matrushka, and a dollar plops something weighty like a pile of books or preserves or etc anywhere across the country.
@InkomTech @david_chisnall 19th and early 20th century European railways inc UK did stuff like that with chalkboards on each railway wagon detailing what was in the wagon and where it was going. A train would be assembled from all sorts of wagons then would drop some off at a yard someplace and pick up some more to take somewhere else. There were also Mail Trains that did the same sort of thing with letters and parcels. (More)
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@InkomTech @david_chisnall 19th and early 20th century European railways inc UK did stuff like that with chalkboards on each railway wagon detailing what was in the wagon and where it was going. A train would be assembled from all sorts of wagons then would drop some off at a yard someplace and pick up some more to take somewhere else. There were also Mail Trains that did the same sort of thing with letters and parcels. (More)
@InkomTech @david_chisnall They had sorting offices on board and could pick and drop off mail bags without even stopping.
