Edit: better not to suggest anything specific & give free education on tactics, but I think there's a germ of something here.
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@sayonaraminasan
I'm not saying we should care about them. I'm saying we should *use* them. They did get manipulated so they have reason to be mad. It's not about what they deserve. It's about what we can get them to do.@artemis fair point. Still wanna see em all in a cell tho! If they can be useful along the way, added bonus
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@artemis fair point. Still wanna see em all in a cell tho! If they can be useful along the way, added bonus
@sayonaraminasan
Hundred percent! Nobody gets away without consequences on this one. Not if we can help it. -
@artemis based on my experience in Starcraft II team games, these guys will blame their allies for their own failure. they more they're frustrated and inconvenienced, the more they lash out at the the people who are "supposed to be protecting" them
@artemis to extrapolate, the best kind of actions would be those that produce a sense of frustration. getting away with it is key. produce a sense that the people who annoyed them are not being punished. in the broader strategic sense, use cheap and safe tactics to trim down their growth with impunity, distract them from their goals, let them focus on imagined threats, while we focus on organizing and developing real economic power
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@angiebaby @artemis But I don't think she's talking about saving them. I think she's talking about using them, redirecting them to mess up their own organization.
@msbellows @angiebaby @artemis these are not people who want that
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@sayonaraminasan
Hundred percent! Nobody gets away without consequences on this one. Not if we can help it.I don't know enough history and sociology to answer this, so please help me answer this — what happened in Germany, in 1945? What is the historical precedent for treating pawns and foot soldiers of fascism? At least, it'll give us a first approximation about what works and what doesn't.
Were all German soldiers rounded up and imprisoned and then tried at Nuremberg? Did some casually move back into civilian life? What did civilians think of them? Did they reintegrate?
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I don't know enough history and sociology to answer this, so please help me answer this — what happened in Germany, in 1945? What is the historical precedent for treating pawns and foot soldiers of fascism? At least, it'll give us a first approximation about what works and what doesn't.
Were all German soldiers rounded up and imprisoned and then tried at Nuremberg? Did some casually move back into civilian life? What did civilians think of them? Did they reintegrate?
@purrperl why look at precedent? There are still neo Nazis in Germany today, so whatever was done at the end of that war wasn’t sufficient in stopping the rise of wannabe gestapo there today. So I propose we go even further than what was done in Germany 1945. Given American history of pardoning war criminals and covering the crimes of others - my position is that the administration of justice this time around needs to be ruthless and complete. None of this reintegration nonsense. Their plan is to deport us all and or kill us all, you don’t reintroduce that back into society. Too extreme?
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@petealexharris
By all reports, these are insanely abusive work environments. Because of the type of organization it is, receiving abuse from within is just part of the job. Because these people are dicks, they don't actually do well at playing nice with each other whatsoever. Horrible people don't just get angry with nice people. They get angry with everyone they feel has harmed them in some way.@petealexharris
The pay is not actually very good & the "signing bonus" was a trap because they would have to pay back IN FULL money they already spent (including the money they never received because of taxes removed). So they are stuck in an awful job that they can't leave.So they are abused everyday by their own bosses & coworkers, then go out into public to get screamed at by everyone else, & on top of everything else, they are barely able to get any sleep at night.
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@petealexharris
The pay is not actually very good & the "signing bonus" was a trap because they would have to pay back IN FULL money they already spent (including the money they never received because of taxes removed). So they are stuck in an awful job that they can't leave.So they are abused everyday by their own bosses & coworkers, then go out into public to get screamed at by everyone else, & on top of everything else, they are barely able to get any sleep at night.
@petealexharris
We aren't going to turn ALL that away onto other targets, but the anger & resentment are already there, & their anger & resentment literally run their lives & determine all their choices. -
@petealexharris
By all reports, these are insanely abusive work environments. Because of the type of organization it is, receiving abuse from within is just part of the job. Because these people are dicks, they don't actually do well at playing nice with each other whatsoever. Horrible people don't just get angry with nice people. They get angry with everyone they feel has harmed them in some way. -
@angiebaby
Humans are a bunch of apes with anxiety. We are significantly more susceptible to programming & significantly less rational & enlightened than we would like to imagine. Monkey see, monkey do.@artemis It will have to be someone else's job. I have a relative who is an ICE agent and knows I'm trans, and I tried talking with him because I used to have such a good relationship with him before he went down the alt-right rabbit hole. He essentially accused me of calling him a terrorist (I didn't) and told me to "watch my step."
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Maybe it should be less specific than listing specific means of obstruction, but why not try to plant the idea that they should fuck with the people who have caught them in a debt trap forcing them to work a truly miserable job?
@artemis Maybe part of the goal can be just reminding them of who is betraying them (promising one set of things, delivering a very different set) -- towards the goal of directing their anger in more beneficial directions.
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@angiebaby @artemis But I don't think she's talking about saving them. I think she's talking about using them, redirecting them to mess up their own organization.
That I can see - but I am still going nowhere near anyone who is involved in ICE. Not even family.
Instead, I will tell cops how disappointing it must be to see ICE make a mockery of them and ruining community involvement for them.
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To be clear: I am not saying "save the ICE agents!" I'm saying we should use their reasons to be angry against the regime.
It IS a fucking raw deal for them! They are the expendable grunts! That fucking sucks for them. But I'm not talking about pity here. I'm saying, these guys are a loaded gun with a hair trigger. Knowing that, can we influence the direction the gun is pointing?
I'm also not talking about collaborating or partnering with anyone in ICE.
I'm thinking more of a propaganda campaign than anything (or a psyop). We don't need them to be our friends. They wouldn't be good friends. They wouldn't even make good strategic allies.
These people have been weaponized against us in a million ways. The fash have done *really* effective propagandizing, exploiting their resentment. Have we learned anything from them about how to exploit their resentment?
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I'm also not talking about collaborating or partnering with anyone in ICE.
I'm thinking more of a propaganda campaign than anything (or a psyop). We don't need them to be our friends. They wouldn't be good friends. They wouldn't even make good strategic allies.
These people have been weaponized against us in a million ways. The fash have done *really* effective propagandizing, exploiting their resentment. Have we learned anything from them about how to exploit their resentment?
The horrible social conditioning that led us here as a society has largely been laid bare at this point. Bots, bots, & more bots. Fake people spewing outrage. People's unthinking resentments & fears harnessed to accomplish their purposes.
It was so goddamn effective for such a long time. But we're learning how it's done, right? They hacked these people's minds, proving that it isn't actually all that fucking hard to do.
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The horrible social conditioning that led us here as a society has largely been laid bare at this point. Bots, bots, & more bots. Fake people spewing outrage. People's unthinking resentments & fears harnessed to accomplish their purposes.
It was so goddamn effective for such a long time. But we're learning how it's done, right? They hacked these people's minds, proving that it isn't actually all that fucking hard to do.
I am not the person to ask about strategy for this, but we do have people with the right specialized knowledge, people who have spent a lot of time analyzing the tactics used who could probably extrapolate a thing or two. A lot of those people are probably going to be found here on Fedi.
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@angiebaby
Humans are a bunch of apes with anxiety. We are significantly more susceptible to programming & significantly less rational & enlightened than we would like to imagine. Monkey see, monkey do.I do respect your bravery.
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I am not the person to ask about strategy for this, but we do have people with the right specialized knowledge, people who have spent a lot of time analyzing the tactics used who could probably extrapolate a thing or two. A lot of those people are probably going to be found here on Fedi.
@artemis Good idea and I think maybe the Epstein affair is the way in to their heads
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I'm also not talking about collaborating or partnering with anyone in ICE.
I'm thinking more of a propaganda campaign than anything (or a psyop). We don't need them to be our friends. They wouldn't be good friends. They wouldn't even make good strategic allies.
These people have been weaponized against us in a million ways. The fash have done *really* effective propagandizing, exploiting their resentment. Have we learned anything from them about how to exploit their resentment?
@artemis I think this is a really good track to go down. Like you said, not to turn them into allies, but just to undermine the enemy.
Like how they don't want to be made fun of, I didn't think they want to be pittied either.
"Look at these sad sack lonely guys, who after everything don't even get their signing bonuses. You know they're not going to get any help when it turns out the shit they're spraying around causes cancer, either. They're not scary, really, just kinda sad and gross."
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@petealexharris
It can be both!In fact, I think that second thing actually can help with the first. They should HATE everything about this experience. They should be frightened of what could happen to them, both now & in the future. We don't let up on them. We don't go "oh we're your friends." Oh no, it is essential to let them know that we see exactly what they are doing, & that we won't forget it. They should be vulnerable, afraid, & isolated.
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I am not the person to ask about strategy for this, but we do have people with the right specialized knowledge, people who have spent a lot of time analyzing the tactics used who could probably extrapolate a thing or two. A lot of those people are probably going to be found here on Fedi.
I appreciate what you're saying. These agents are people (horribly racist, violent, misogynistic, xenophobic assholes), but still people.
Maybe a message like: You can QUIT ANYTIME! JOIN US!
Like that video of Goldie Hawn's son last year, yelling at officers in LA. He expressed righteous anger, yet also spoke to them like humans. With a message like: "Are you proud of what you're doing??" I'll try to find the video.
I think a JUST QUIT! and JOIN US! message could work.
