Edit: better not to suggest anything specific & give free education on tactics, but I think there's a germ of something here.

[artemis@dice.camp]

Might need some refining, but a lot of these dudes are fucking *trapped* by their "signing bonus", & whether they are on "our side" or not, they probably resent the people who trapped them in this misery.

[erotica@kinkycats.org]

@artemis
Like instead of shooting at people;
ICE shoots towards the ground?
Or something similar to that.‍️

[artemis@dice.camp]

Maybe it should be less specific than listing specific means of obstruction, but why not try to plant the idea that they should fuck with the people who have caught them in a debt trap forcing them to work a truly miserable job?

[artemis@dice.camp]

@erotica
Even just simple ways of wasting time. One type of easy "sabotage" is just trying to act "by the book" (getting proper sign-off on things & stuff like that) which can slow operations down considerably.

[erotica@kinkycats.org]

@artemis
I like the way you think.

[artemis@dice.camp]

ICE agents were handed a raw deal. I don't feel all that sympathetic because they all signed up with plans of doing violence to people, but most of them are not hardcore ideologues or fanatics. They are just assholes. Racist, misogynistic assholes.

I'm not eager to welcome any of these people into our camps unless they change their ways & do the work, BUT they have a reason to be aggrieved & if there is *any* way to use that, we should.

[artemis@dice.camp]

Turn their aggression inward. A lot of them are dudes with a perpetual chip on their shoulder. No matter the "enemy", they are going to want to hurt someone. So...if that anger is going to go somewhere, what can we do to direct it onto their own organization?

[mostol@social.coop]

@artemis Listing specific things might put people on the lookout for folks *doing* those specific things, but maybe having zines/printouts someone could grab based on stuff like the Simple Sabotage Field Manual could be smart? And could also potentially provide some…liberatory education?

[angiebaby@mas.to]

@artemis Sorry, I can't sign onto this proposal. They signed up because they are racist misogynists who signed up to do violence - that's what inspired them, the ability to murder, declare their victims terrorists and get away with it. Anyone still clinging to this regime is beyond saving.

[artemis@dice.camp]

I'm not an expert on this type of propagandizing, but I would bet that we could learn a lot from all the vicious manipulation by bad actors across the internet in the last couple decades.

They really played us, y'all. With the bots & the foreign agents, they fucked with our heads. But...now we know how this game is played.

So how do we fuck with these guys? How do we weaponize their victim complexes & resentments?

[msbellows@c.im]

@angiebaby @artemis But I don't think she's talking about saving them. I think she's talking about using them, redirecting them to mess up their own organization.

[sayonaraminasan@urusai.social]

@artemis out of the loop but why should I care about what happens to a gestapo thug? lol they knew what they were signing on for. Even if they sabatoged the whole operation from within, brought the whole org down from the inside out - I would still wanna see them all rot in a cell for eternity lol my own view of course. There’s no redemption for them to be had, and if any of them ARE having second thoughts at this moment - it’s likely that it’s because they feel the walls of justice slowly closing in on them. Fuck all I.C.E agents. It’s not like they were forced to sign up. Again my own view, only. Once you sign with that org, you have crossed a line there’s no walking back from.

[artemis@dice.camp]

@angiebaby
It's not about saving. Trying to convince people "you shouldn't hurt people" is not worth it. They aren't gonna listen. But we should use every lever we can.

But also...I don't know about "beyond saving". I'm not expecting to win anyone over, but some people will leave the cult & be horrified at everything they went along with & participated in. I can't write most human beings off entirely.

[artemis@dice.camp]

@angiebaby
Humans are a bunch of apes with anxiety. We are significantly more susceptible to programming & significantly less rational & enlightened than we would like to imagine. Monkey see, monkey do.

[mungus@jorts.horse]

@artemis based on my experience in Starcraft II team games, these guys will blame their allies for their own failure. they more they're frustrated and inconvenienced, the more they lash out at the the people who are "supposed to be protecting" them

[artemis@dice.camp]

@sayonaraminasan
I'm not saying we should care about them. I'm saying we should *use* them. They did get manipulated so they have reason to be mad. It's not about what they deserve. It's about what we can get them to do.

[artemis@dice.camp]

@petealexharris
The difference between them is not a *moral* one. It's that the hardcore fanatics will hold on longer. If a guy is just some dick who wanted to play out a power fantasy, he doesn't have any particular loyalty.

[artemis@dice.camp]

@petealexharris
The *entire* idea is sand in the gears. I'm not on a mission to save them.

These violent people have been weaponized against us for so long. Why not see if they can be weaponized against someone else?

[artemis@dice.camp]

To be clear: I am not saying "save the ICE agents!" I'm saying we should use their reasons to be angry against the regime.

It IS a fucking raw deal for them! They are the expendable grunts! That fucking sucks for them. But I'm not talking about pity here. I'm saying, these guys are a loaded gun with a hair trigger. Knowing that, can we influence the direction the gun is pointing?

[sayonaraminasan@urusai.social]

@artemis fair point. Still wanna see em all in a cell tho! If they can be useful along the way, added bonus